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Why Are the Majority of Those in Hell the Poor and Oppressed Masses?

Their view was from above. Looking down at their body being worked on.
Oh so they were dreaming.
Jesus says you are immediately in his presence, there are no tunnels nor journeys of any sort so there isn't any point after death when you can be recalled to life, you are either dead and in Jesus's presence or not dead and not in his presence. You can only return to this earth after his second coming. So those describing a tunnel, a journey, seeing loved ones and so on are not seeing what Jesus claims the afterlife to be.
 
Why would it be a stretch? They are eyewitness accounts.
No, they are not. They are the subjective experiences of an organism known to be under extreme biological stress.

That would be primary evidence in a court of law.
Absolutely it would not.

Eyewitness testimony is testimony from a person who perceived the events in question with one or more of their senses. Fed. R. Evid. § 602.
 
NDE as described by Chris Packham: going shopping with Michaela Strachan (I think it might have specifically been clothes shopping, but CBA to check, given that Packham's comment is more sensible that most that folk claim about NDE).
 
Their view was from above. Looking down at their body being worked on.
The problem with veridical NDEs is that they don't show some different place that's the afterlife. They show the present life, and are generally attributed to undetected semi-lucidity during periods in which the patient is being measured as lifeless (e.g., no heartbeat). You can't use those as testimony of an afterlife even if you can prove that the experience was sensory, because the sensation was of the ordinary world at present time.

On the other hand, accounts of otherworldy situations and places—such as life reviews, floating towards the light, mystical encounters, and so forth—are immediately rejected (at least in the legal context) because the witness cannot show a foundation for their experiences as actual sensations as opposed to purely experiential phenomena such as dreams or hallucinations. Especially when other witnesses can testify to the patient's unconsciousness and non-responsiveness, laying a foundation that the account is sensory and therefore admissible would be effectively impossible.
 
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Jesus' words? Like what?

Luke 20:37-39 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise,
for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”
Luke 23:43 and 2 Corinthians 5:8
 
You seem to be carefully avoiding making some sort of a point in this thread. Care to tell us what it is?
I'm new here as of today. Still testing the waters.
Frankly, I don't feel very welcome.
And now you are coming in for the kill.
 
I'm new here as of today. Still testing the waters.
Frankly, I don't feel very welcome.
And now you are coming in for the kill.

It's not that you aren't welcome, but that the notions you express aren't
being defended in any novel or interesting ways; your arguments have been
debunked repeatedly, here on this modest internet forum -- and elsewhere, in
published works of wide provenance.

Stick around. You won't suffer any harm.
 
I'm new here as of today. Still testing the waters.
Frankly, I don't feel very welcome.
And now you are coming in for the kill.
It's a skeptics forum. If you're introducing claims that you think skeptics might object to, then you should expect your respondents to behave like skeptics.

However, you should just introduce the claims. Don't softball them in or dance around them. If you are planning to argue that NDEs (and possibly other evidence) proves the existence of an afterlife, then just say that. And then, of course, be prepared to say why you think that's good evidence. When you dance around controversial topics, you convey the impression that you're trying to sneak something in without actually being ready to state and defend it. The best thing you can do as a newcomer is to be straightforward and honest.
 
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At a minimum they testified to what they saw and heard. That's one or more.
Let me expand on this since I have more time.

Federal rule 602 and its associated notes and case law requires an eyewitness to have perceived an actual external reality with their organic senses. The law distinguishes between internal mental states and external observed reality. Experiences such as dreams, hallucinations, and near-death experiences are internal mental states even though they manifest as recollections of sensory experiences. A witness recounting a near-death experience may state their knowledge that they had the experience. But they do not have legally required knowledge of the events purported in the experience. This is an ironclad legal distinction in American law.

During voir dire of an eyewitness (the few questions at the beginning where the qualification of the witness is presented to the trier of fact), the witness will be asked under what circumstances they had knowledge of the things they are about to recount. They will need to state their physical circumstances. Let me stress this: you need a physical opportunity to observe what you're about to testify to.

Veridical NDEs may possibly qualify. These are the kind where the witness is able to recount precise, verifiable details about their circumstances, such as laying in a hospital bed while clinically dead and being able to recall verbatim a conversation between other people in the room. Because those are tied to a plausible physical opportunity for sensation (even if others think you're dead), it can qualify under Rule 602. You would still have to endure a blistering cross examination, but such testimony would be admissible initially.

What isn't admissible are the purely experiential kinds of NDE that are commonly proffered as evidence for an afterlife, not just continued existence "after death" in the known physical surroundings of the claimant's body. I gave examples of that before, such as seeing a light and heading toward it, having your life flash before your eyes, seeing loved ones, experience a euphoric feeling, seeing idyllic scenes. These fail admissibility under Rule 602 because the description of your physical state is something along the lines of laying on a hospital bed with your eyes closed and otherwise unresponsive to sensory stimulus, and lacking organic function sufficient to receive and process sensation.

The "matter in question" is what's important. If the matter in question is the appearance of your long-dead Uncle Bob standing in a beautiful green field, then the purported physicality of that claim has to match the observable physicality of your situation. No, your physical sensory organs are not anywhere near a putatively physical beautiful green field and they aren't seeing your dead uncle. They're in a hospital bed in a treatment room, mostly inert. That's the external reality. If what you experience cannot even find a nexus to an actual, sensible, external, physical reality, then the law treats that as an "all in your head" situation and you won't qualify under Rule 602. Even if your senses were still somehow operating, there is no physical opportunity to see green fields in a hospital room, or a dead person. The nature of the claim is incompatible with the physical circumstances to which you are subject.

This is obviously different than the veridical NDE. If your senses were somehow still operating, the claims in a veridical NDE are at least plausibly compatible with the physical reality in which your body finds itself. You claim to hear a conversation taking place between people in a hospital room—while you're lying dead in the bed in the hospital room. That's the nexus between what you say you experienced and an external reality.

I'm picking on you like this because claims of what is legally admissible are often fun to make for rhetorical effect, but usually run up against what actual legal findings are. So unless you know something about the actual law, it's best not to embellish along those lines. Courts really have heard it all: claims about theory-of-mind and epistemological handwaving that you can get away with informally elsewhere. They don't buy it. If in your NDE you claim to be heading toward a pleasant white light, that's admissible as eyewitness testimony only if you can prove that your physical circumstances produced the opportunity for actual photons from such a light to be actually hitting your actual retinas. The law really wants what is claimed to be eyewitness testimony to be something that's actually physically experienced via the senses.
 
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There's the same amount of evidence for unicorns and fairies at the bottom of my garden.
Unicorns are a really interesting myth as they exist, they are merely rhinoceros, but because of misunderstanding and mistranslation they came to be the horses with a single horn, so we have a lot more evidence for unicorns than we do for an afterlife! We have absolutely zero evidence of an afterlife, not one iota of data, nothing at all that could even indicate that there might be an afterlife. It is an entirely faith based proposition.
 
And of course we don't have any eyewitness testemony of people who have died. Near death is near death not death and according to many accounts if you read the medical details they give folk were not really near death, for example your heart stopping is not instant death, not even for the heat exchanger in your skull. If we start to be able to "bring people back" after 24 hours of death I suppose we may have to consider they experienced something after their death.
 
The law really wants what is claimed to be eyewitness testimony to be something that's actually physically experienced via the senses.
There is the problem.
If those who entered an NDE are experiencing the spiritual realm, then they have traveled outside the physical realm.
Their soul has temporarily left their physical body, yet they report seeing and hearing things. Courts be damned.
 

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