Apollo 11 Moon Landing Revisited: Hoax ~vs~ Debunk

[Axxman300]

Arguably before that, if you count all the V2 and Aerobee launches throughout the late '40s and into the '50s.

Sure, if I throw in our Third Reich hand-me-downs I can stretch it a bit, but I was thinking of the National Aeronautics and Space Act of 1958. It's pathetic to think our technological progress between 1962 and 1969 was in any way unrealistic. You'd have to live under a huge rock not to grasp this...

 

[JayUtah]

I was thinking of the National Aeronautics and Space Act of 1958.

While that act created NASA, it did not create the space program. NASA was created by combining the previous and ongoing efforts of then-existing independent air and space research "centers" under one administration. The space program had been proceeding individually, haphazardly, and disjointedly at those centers since at least World War II. The lack of coordination was conspicuous. Anyone who does business with NASA recognizes that those centers never really lost all their identity and autonomy. Some days, engaging with NASA is like herding cats.

It's pathetic to think our technological progress between 1962 and 1969 was in any way unrealistic. You'd have to live under a huge rock not to grasp this...

The pathetic claim is that the space program started from nothing in 1962, with the claimant repeating NOTHING in all caps. It's one thing to point at the transformative amount of funding that went into Apollo starting then. But it's just purely nonfactual to say that there was "NOTHING" before 1962.

 

[Myriad]

The astronauts took lots of little trinkets of personal significance with them. One carried a picture of his kids that he left on the Moon.

Dang, there was some tough-love parenting going on back then! I hope the kids made it back on a subsequent mission.

 

[Foster Zygote]

And what wasn't tracked. Missile early warning systems routinely scanned for orbiting objects in the 1960s.

Hell, people could have seen the CSM in orbit.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Dang, there was some tough-love parenting going on back then! I hope the kids made it back on a subsequent mission.

The toughest part was that there's no atmosphere so they couldn''t listen to their tunes.

 

[JayUtah]

Hell, people could have seen the CSM in orbit.

Yes, I agree. I've said a few times that the CSM would be a naked-eye object in the night sky just after dusk and just before dawn. In the 1960s satellite-spotting was much more of a pastime than it is today. It most certainly would have been noticed. You can't hide something the size of a delivery van in low-Earth orbit.

 

[EHocking]

I understand the safety issues with Stanley Travel Mugs, so NASA made them wear proper PPE when handling such dangerous equipment.

But why does his coffee mug have an antenna/satellite dish?
(a genuine question. I can’t google find the device)

I wasn't far wrong from "vacuum mug" - it is a geological sampler with the tethered cap hanging below - an SESC (link is PDF).

Interesting extra sample is that the sealed instrument would also capture the of the moon's near vacuum exosphere (e.g., atmosphere).
Atmospheric pressure is roughly \(3 \times 10^{-15}\) atm and made up of:
Primary Elements: Helium, neon, and argon. Trace Elements: Hydrogen, sodium, and potassium.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Dang, there was some tough-love parenting going on back then! I hope the kids made it back on a subsequent mission.

"If you're not back in the capsule before I count down from three I'm blasting off without you and you can wait and ask Mr Worden and Mr Irwin if they'll give you a lift home when they get here"

 

[EHocking]

I wasn't far wrong from "vacuum mug" - it is a geological sampler with the tethered cap hanging below - an SESC (link is PDF).
View attachment 71317
Interesting extra sample is that the sealed instrument would also capture the of the moon's near vacuum exosphere (e.g., atmosphere).
Atmospheric pressure is roughly \(3 \times 10^{-15}\) atm and made up of:
Primary Elements: Helium, neon, and argon. Trace Elements: Hydrogen, sodium, and potassium.

Ironic, all things considered, that I should stuff up the notation for the moon’s exosphere.
Should have read, 3 X 10^-15 atm (0.3 nPa)

 

[JayUtah]

Ironic, all things considered, that I should stuff up the notation for the moon’s exosphere.

Google (and some other sites) render math notation using LaTeX and a web widget that coverts the source markdown on the fly into proper graphics or Unicode characters. When you copy the rendered expression, it actually copies the underlying source:

\(3 \times 10^{-15}\)

I have a thread on the forum management section about LaTeX on the forum. I think a similar math-rendering widget would be "fun to have" on this forum, but may not be worth the development effort.

I wasn't far wrong from "vacuum mug" - it is a geological sampler with the tethered cap hanging below - an SESC (link is PDF).

I hope he didn't drop the little screw holding the tether onto the container.

Interesting extra sample is that the sealed instrument would also capture the of the moon's near vacuum exosphere...

The larger sample return containers (the suitcase-sized one) also had knife-edge seals and elastomer O-rings. But they didn't always work perfectly. The smaller SESCs made it easier to seal the container without lunar grit intervening in the seal.

That photo also has a full buffet of optical artifacts you can expect to see in lunar surface photography. It has three kinds of lens artifacts plus fogging from dust on the lens.

 

[Vixen]

Talking of spotting things, have you yet realised that there are people in this thread with first hand knowledge of NASA, including someone who features in the video you shared in the OP?

Have you 'spotted' where I mentioned it yet?

I don't think enough clues have been given yet, it'll be a while, if ever, before the penny drops.

Let us know when 'the penny drops'.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Let us know when 'the penny drops'.

Since the idiom is referring to you realizing that you know the least, by far, about the Apollo Program than the other participants in this thread, you'll be the first to know.


Getting back to those stars you so easily photographed, could you just tell us the following?

- Camera type
- Film type
- Aperture setting (if applicable)
- Exposure setting (if applicable)
- Any accessory equipment you used to facilitate taking the images

 

[Carrot Flower King]

What?

So now I need to go out and get pennies as well as mulberry bushes?

It's almost like being back at work again: thanks a bunch!

 

[EHocking]

Google (and some other sites) render math notation using LaTeX and a web widget that coverts the source markdown on the fly into proper graphics or Unicode characters. When you copy the rendered expression, it actually copies the underlying source:

The source I cut/pasted for my correction ended up being a gif graphic of the notation, so I typed out the notation just using the superscript function for the exponent.

I found the numbers fascinating.
The “exosphere” of the moon is a trillion times less dense than earth’s atmosphere, while still being billions of times denser than interstellar vacuum.
10⁶ to 10⁷ particles per cubic metre for the moon compared to less than 1 per cubic metre in space. Staggering.

I have a thread on the forum management section about LaTeX on the forum. I think a similar math-rendering widget would be "fun to have" on this forum, but may not be worth the development effort.

I remember the “fun” had on the science groups on Usenet when attempting to render mathematical/scientific equations.

I hope he didn't drop the little screw holding the tether onto the container.

i now have an image of Alan Bean scrabbling around down the side of his seat on the LEM while telling Conrad to slow down and stop jiggling the lander.

The larger sample return containers (the suitcase-sized one) also had knife-edge seals and elastomer O-rings. But they didn't always work perfectly. The smaller SESCs made it easier to seal the container without lunar grit intervening in the seal.

Knowing me, I’d cut my suit on the knife-edge seal and probably end up with it covered in duct tape - except where needed, which is SOP for me.

That photo also has a full buffet of optical artifacts you can expect to see in lunar surface photography. It has three kinds of lens artifacts plus fogging from dust on the lens.

“Dust”, he says, when we all know it is the gelatin being affected by X-rays.

Zooming in on the image to check these artefacts out, I could have answered my own question as you can actually see the gravel sample at the top of the SESC.

 

[SpitfireIX]

But the rational truth is the Soviets had Star City, and still do. They moved all their space related science and industry there to...guess what?...Yup, put stuff into space, and work on missiles. The space race of the 1950s and 1960s was a healthy competition between two competing superpowers. It happened, it was real, men died in both programs, and men did incredible things on the ground, and in space. People who doubt this are morons.

Valentina Tereshkova and Katherine Goble Johnson, inter alia, would like a word.

 

[JayUtah]

I found the numbers fascinating.

Space science can really bake your noodle if you let it.

i now have an image of Alan Bean scrabbling around down the side of his seat on the LEM while telling Conrad to slow down and stop jiggling the lander.

Of course I was referring jokingly back to the story where I dropped the little screw that held the Hasselblad lens cap chain to the body. Turns out that was not an original feature of the camera. It was something added for display.

Part of the reason the large-scale SRCs didn't work as well as planned was vibrations transmitted to them after being stowed int he spaceship.

Knowing me, I’d cut my suit on the knife-edge seal

No, you wouldn't. The knife edge is only about half a millimeter wide, far smaller than the thickness of your over-glove. The gauntlets with the hemispherical knobby silicone were not pressurized. You would wear them over your pressurized suit gloves. Ditto the white overgarment. The silvery part on the gloves and booties is a fabric called Chromel-R, a woven mesh of very fine nickel-chromium alloy wire for protection against abrasion. It's really tough stuff. In the suit we used in the video, that was replaced by silver nylon since Chromel-R was $1300 a yard in 1965.

and probably end up with it covered in duct tape - except where needed, which is SOP for me.

Duct tape or Kapton. The tape they took on the command module was made by Shure and is closer to what we would call gaffer tape today, used in film and theater. Kapton tape was extremely common too, as Kapton has wonderful thermal properties. I'm not sure any of that was carried aboard. It's naturally orange, and the insulation blankets on the LM itself were taped on with Kapton tape during manufacture. It's the magic "duct tape" of engineering and science. We buy it by the case.

Hilariously, when they did the latest conservation pass on LM-2, a lot of it was replacing the Kapton tape. While the Kapton itself was in good shape, the adhesive had degraded and was no longer sticky. So you end up replacing tape with tape.

 

[EHocking]

Space science can really bake your noodle if you let it.


Of course I was referring jokingly back to the story where I dropped the little screw that held the Hasselblad lens cap chain to the body. Turns out that was not an original feature of the camera. It was something added for display.

And if I remember the anecdote, the replacement screw was even less an original feature…

Part of the reason the large-scale SRCs didn't work as well as planned was vibrations transmitted to them after being stowed int he spaceship.


No, you wouldn't. The knife edge is only about half a millimeter wide, far smaller than the thickness of your over-glove. The gauntlets with the hemispherical knobby silicone were not pressurized. You would wear them over your pressurized suit gloves. Ditto the white overgarment. The silvery part on the gloves and booties is a fabric called Chromel-R, a woven mesh of very fine nickel-chromium alloy wire for protection against abrasion. It's really tough stuff. In the suit we used in the video, that was replaced by silver nylon since Chromel-R was $1300 a yard in 1965.

Well I never. I’ve always thought the exterior suit was the pressure suit.

Duct tape or Kapton. The tape they took on the command module was made by Shure and is closer to what we would call gaffer tape today, used in film and theater. Kapton tape was extremely common too, as Kapton has wonderful thermal properties. I'm not sure any of that was carried aboard. It's naturally orange, and the insulation blankets on the LM itself were taped on with Kapton tape during manufacture. It's the magic "duct tape" of engineering and science. We buy it by the case.

Hilariously, when they did the latest conservation pass on LM-2, a lot of it was replacing the Kapton tape. While the Kapton itself was in good shape, the adhesive had degraded and was no longer sticky. So you end up replacing tape with tape.

Gaffer. Yeah. Used to play in a band and gaffer was mostly used to keep the bumper bar and certain panels on, on the van.

Said duct ‘cos mythbusters made it generically “the” tape.
I’m now suitably embarrassed for the tape gaffe.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Space science can really bake your noodle if you let it.


Of course I was referring jokingly back to the story where I dropped the little screw that held the Hasselblad lens cap chain to the body. Turns out that was not an original feature of the camera. It was something added for display.

Somebody took it apart and put it back together and had a screw left over?

 

[EHocking]

Somebody took it apart and put it back together and had a screw left over?

 

[JayUtah]

And if I remember the anecdote, the replacement screw was even less an original feature…

I plead the Fifth.

Well I never. I’ve always thought the exterior suit was the pressure suit.

Nope.

You have the liquid-cooling garment. That's long underwear with a network of fine plastic tubes woven into it. The backpack circulates water through this network to remove body heat. Or not, since the system ended up working really well. Many of the crews said they were actually too cold on the Normal setting. There was a little wheel on the bottom corner of the backpack that worked like a thermostat control. Most of the crews set it on the warm side.

Then you have the pressure garment. That's what holds in the air. The helmet, boots, and gloves have metal rings that attach to the PGA at the neck, wrists, and ankles and make the pressure-tight seal there. You can see all the various devices that make the suit flexible despite the pressure it contains. You can also see the cables that run through friction colletts. This is to help you hold your arms and legs in a flexed position, where the pressure would want to spring them back straight.

The ingress air seal is via pressure-tight zippers. On the inside you have two overlapping rubber flaps that are pressed together by the internal pressure to create the seal. Then along the outside you have the zipper that holds the opposite edges together. It's a rather ingenious way to do it.



The outer layer is the thermal and micrometeoroid protection layer, which is several alternating layers of white Beta cloth (a kind of fiberglass fabric) and thin polymer films. You use several layers to absorb small micrometeoroids. But that's the white layer that you commonly associate with the space suit. The outer layer is fastened by Velcro strips and normally stays put over the blue rubber layer. However, on one mission the crew took the outer layer off one suit to adjust the friction cables for one crew member's comfort.

The pressure-bearing "fishbowl" helmet was covered by a non-pressurized white EVA helmet. That had the plain and golden visors. I mentioned the gauntlets already. Then you have silicone and Chromel-R booties that strap on over the pressure-bearing boots.

If you want the whole story, Bill Ayrey's Lunar Outfitters is the standard reference.

Gaffer. Yeah. Used to play in a band and gaffer was mostly used to keep the bumper bar and certain panels on, on the van.

Up to 75% of any given theater is held together with gaffer tape. It's structural.