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Apollo 11 Moon Landing Revisited: Hoax ~vs~ Debunk

Indeed, the humor is not lost. I'm merely illustrating how easy it is to find answers to the allegedly "hard questions" of Apollo. If people were genuinely curious or suspicious, they could get actual answers. Instead people want the questions to hang there, apparently unanswered, as a way of creating the illusion that there are actual unsolved mysteries there. Which is why I wonder why some people immediately flock to conspiracy theorists every time they turn their attention to a new topic.
One of the best examples of that has to be "how did they fit the moon buggy into the lander?" - asked rhetorically, as though it's already established that it couldn't have fit. One can find the answer in a matter of seconds, including 3D modeling and even actual video of how the LRV was stowed and deployed.
 
Apollo was one of the most extensively, meticulously, and publicly documented public projects there ever has been. No matter what level of detail you want or are able to examine, the detail is there. It remains within people's living memory. The artifacts remain for us to examine.
When I was a kid I'd write NASA at least twice a year asking for Apollo and Skylab pictures, and they'd ALWAYS send an envelope crammed full of 8x10s of random space stuff. They must have loved kids. And I even sent away for an application for the shuttle program, which they also sent along with a detailed brochure detailing minimum requirements. Due to my proximity to the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, I have met many astronauts, and NASA people. They all seem to love talking about about their jobs, and will go into as much detail as you want, or they have time for.

I even met Alan Shepard. I was too nervous to ask about space, but we talked about golf for a little bit.

Point being that NASA is just too big to keep this kind of a secret.

Just look at the fallout after each of the shuttle disasters, and Apollo-1. NASA tried to keep a lid on things, but information leaked anyway. NASA people don't do secret stuff very well (with exceptions).

And meanwhile, NASA has a probe about to swing around Mars to use its gravity to reach an asteroid out between Mars and Jupiter named Psyche, an all metal, or all nickel core of a planet:


No big deal. We're just using physics dating back to Newton to go check out a cool rock deep in our solar system. But sending dudes to the moon is impossible. Give me a break.
 
Comparisons to Earth clothing and experienced heat load are somewhat instructive, but not entirely analogous. On Earth your experienced temperature depends on a lot of things. And the objective thermal solution is different: you have evaporative cooling, air flow, and limited radiative heat transfer between layers...
So, a valid analogy, but one of only limited accuracy. Thank you for the detailed explanation. It was very informative.
 
Damned if you do {take photgraphs}, damned if you don't!
I'm convinced this is why David Percy's book is so long (500+ pages) and filled with tedious irrelevancy (UFOs and Egyptian numerology) and why his video is nearly four hours long and filled with tedious recitation. The longer you spend with them, the more you see that they switch expectations like this. But they keep throwing irrelevant things at you and belaboring the wrong points to make you forget how much they're just making it up.

Rocket scientists can't educate certain people because there's nothing for them to push against in a vacuum.
I've never failed to teach any facet of the Apollo missions (or space travel or science in general) to anyone of any background who actually wanted the answers. No, not everyone gets to the point of being able to solve heat transfer through differential equations. But the basic principles are easy enough to express by analogy. Yes, you do need to have or learn some science. But it can be done.

People cling to conspiracy theories because they want to. There is no other reason. It's not because the hoax theories themselves make better sense (usually quite the opposite) or are in any way predicated on a better understanding of the relevant facts.

When I was a kid I'd write NASA at least twice a year asking for Apollo and Skylab pictures...
Of course NASA was good at public relations back then. And back then it was one the great places to work if you were really good at being a scientist or an engineer.

It's one thing to send swag to school kids. But people have gotten their hands on actual NASA equipment being sold as scrap, and have recognized it, salvaged it using NASA's documents from the National Archives, and agree it works. They've posted the software on Github, where it has been downloaded and run on emulators that diligent fans built solely from decades old hardware specifications. I remember a guy named Sullivan once built a complete Solid Works model of all the manned spacecraft using nothing but what had been published throughout the years.

I even met Alan Shepard. I was too nervous to ask about space, but we talked about golf for a little bit.
I met Shepard too. He visited my school when he was in town to give a lecture at the university. So they rounded up the nerdiest kids to sit in a classroom and ask questions. Al told us about this great thing NASA was going to have one day: a giant spaceship that would take off like a rocket and land like an airplane, take off again like a rocket and land like an airplane, over and over again. Decades later, when I had my head in a giant fuel line trying to help NASA figure out why there were cracks forming in the flowliner to the RS-25 low-pressure turbopump, I just smiled quietly to myself.

Point being that NASA is just too big to keep this kind of a secret.
Paradoxically, this is what some authors try to say is wrong with the photos or whatever. They say they've been deliberately tampered with to tip off diligent researchers like these brave conspiracy theorists as to what was really going on. They knew that the conspiracy theorists would eventually figure it out, even though these hypothetical whistle-blowers would have been killed if NASA had caught on to what they were doing. Some of them say they even wrote to NASA with all their challenges and tip-offs, and NASA had the audacity not even to bother answering them. The nerve!

It goes on and on like that. It's cultural and historical vandalism. When some people lack the skills to build beautiful things themselves, they get revenge by spray-painting their self-important vulgarity all over other people's achievements.

And meanwhile, NASA has a probe about to swing around Mars to use its gravity to reach an asteroid out between Mars and Jupiter named Psyche, an all metal, or all nickel core of a planet...
And the people who built and operated Apollo had already been distinguished in their fields before they got there. It's not as if Apollo rose out of nowhere and faded into nothing. Tom Kelly's team, who build the lunar module, later went on to design the Grumman F-14, one of the most successful jet fighters of all time. They really are top guns in their field.

I'm convinced that the reason some people—not all, but some—believe in obviously unlearned hoax theories like this is that they failed in some aspiration for their own life, maybe even through no fault of their own. Regardless, they're stuck there. They couldn't be brilliant scientists or world renowned artists because, for whatever reason, it ended up beyond their grasp. But instead of filling the measure of their actual talents and present circumstances and having joy therein, they silently bemoan their station and resent those others whose opportunities, skill, and perseverance allowed them to accomplish something to a degree they themselves couldn't. They figure those apparently successful people weren't actually any smarter, more diligent, or more talented than they, so whatever they achieved must have been obtained by cheating. And they make it their life's goal to "discover" (i.e., manufacture) the evidence of that cheating to soothe their fragile egos and convince themselves that they won in the end.

That particular brand of hoax believer simply can't accept that other people really have provably distinguished themselves in the mastery of challenging sciences and actually solved the problems they set out to solve. Because if they accepted that, they would have to acknowledge that their own comparative shortcomings are their own fault, not someone else's. They may really not be as smart as the people who built and flew spaceships to the Moon. Consequently they decide to spray-paint their resentfulness and delusions of superiority all over those accomplishments: "No, no, pay attention to meeee!"
 
So, a valid analogy, but one of only limited accuracy. Thank you for the detailed explanation. It was very informative.
It's why UPS package vans have white roofs, not dark brown.
The basic physics are all still the same. Optical properties can still be boiled down to the classics: transmissivity, emissivity, reflectivity, and absorptivity. Heat transfer mechanisms can still be boiled down to conduction, convection, and radiation.

But in most practical problems there is a complex interplay between the mechanisms and properties. Often one property or mechanism will dominate in a case that looks at first blush very similar to a different case. But then the numbers work out differently in that case and another phenomenon dominates. You may feel cooler in a white shirt, but it's also possible for an objective thermometer not to register that.

Some of these processes are counterintuitive, often by being robust when they shouldn't seem to be, or conversely delicate when they shouldn't. One of the radiators for some bit of lunar equipment faced upward so as to have a clear view factor to deep space. But it wasn't radiating as efficiently as expected. Upon closer study, it had a partial view factor to a sunlit lunar mountain, which affected the radiator surface just enough to diminish its effectiveness. You study these things when you study physics, of course. But then you go out to practice them as your profession and you get to see how even "cold" light can mess up your design.

That's why this brand of engineering gives no quarter to the half-assed or ill-prepared. There is no substitute for demonstrable competence. Space does not tolerate the careless or the indifferent. You don't get to just coast, because at any moment your knowledge or workmanship may the one thing that saves the mission—or fails it. And because these are the stakes we voluntarily take upon ourselves, imagine what our tolerance is for a guy who waves a photo around, makes provably false claims to expertise, and then says he knows better whether the Apollo missions were fake or not.

"Lighten up, Jay, it was just a tabloid magazine," I hear from time to time. No, for some people Apollo was their life's work. They suffered for it in high blood pressure, baldness, failed marriages, children they never got to see grow up, and for a few, in actual blood and ashes. They weren't faking it, and they can prove it. They deserve better than for some self-important ringmaster to make his living calling them liars.
 
I'm convinced this is why David Percy's book is so long (500+ pages) and filled with tedious irrelevancy (UFOs and Egyptian numerology) and why his video is nearly four hours long and filled with tedious recitation. The longer you spend with them, the more you see that they switch expectations like this. But they keep throwing irrelevant things at you and belaboring the wrong points to make you forget how much they're just making it up.
🤔 that pattern seems vaguely familiar to a number of posts in just this thread 🤔
 
🤔 that pattern seems vaguely familiar to a number of posts in just this thread 🤔
Is not just the ongoing Gish gallop. Some authors just reverse themselves as needed. At one point Percy claims the Apollo photographs were all flawless, which is suspicious. Then 200 pages or so later he says the Apollo photos all contain numerous flaws, which is suspicious. You weren’t supposed to remember the previous claim. The authors make sure you don’t by filling the intervening pages with all kinds of irrelevant woo.
 
Comparisons to Earth clothing and experienced heat load are somewhat instructive, but not entirely analogous. On Earth your experienced temperature depends on a lot of things. And the objective thermal solution is different: you have evaporative cooling, air flow, and limited radiative heat transfer between layers.

Thermal engineering for space is its own subspecialty of practice. The problem is usually rejecting unwanted heat. Therefore the passive elements of the solution are generally aimed at reducing absorption. A space suit contains something that generates heat: an astronaut producing 80-100 W of metabolic heat. Paradoxically the contents must remain within a narrow band of temperature in order to be safe and effective. In an Earth environment there are many ways to properly reject that heat. But inside a space suit, thermal regulation becomes difficult. Sweating is ineffective. Airflow management is problematic. Hence an active heat rejection system is employed, but as it relies upon consumables, it is limited in how long it can function. That said, central to the problem is not absorbing any more heat from the environment than is strictly necessary. Therefore space suits are highly reflective so that the only heat to manage is the internally-generated heat.

Spacecraft have similar problems. Their contents (electronics, etc.) generate heat that must be rejected, but luckily not quite as aggressively. The passive elements (outside coatings, etc.) minimize absorption. A limited amount of heat is kept around to create a shirtsleeves environment, otherwise you get the 0-10 °C of Apollo 13 just via the rejection from radiation. This is what we would expect from a typical non-blackbody object at Earth distance. The rest of the heat is radiated away via radiators on the service module. Keep in mind these are not car radiators, which are actually heat exchangers. These are pure radiative objects that are spaced so that at least one of them faces deep space and therefore has proper radiative efficiency. The space shuttle kept their radiators on the inside surface of the cargo bay doors. Water-glycol coolant circulates between the radiators and heat sources.

A notable exception is the black areas on the Apollo lunar module. These are areas that had to be kept warm for various reasons, such as needing to contain liquid water and liquid propellants at a comfortable temperature. The bulbous protrusions on either side of the ascent stage are the propellant tanks. The propellants for this engine need to stay at around room temperature. Hence they have black panels to provide some passive heat absorption. There are conductive and re-radiative paths from the outer skin to the tanks. Similarly there are black panels on the front of the cockpit. The LM lands facing away from the sun and the cabin cannot rely as heavily as the CM for heating from electronics, which are mounted on coldplates on the back. So the front panels absorb just enough re-reflected light from the lunar surface in front of the LM to keep parts of the cabin from getting too cold. The black panels on the descent stage are for similar temperature-control reasons. Sometimes you want a little bit of sunlight.

These days we make heavy use of computational radiative heat transfer (CRHT) to validate designs. The efficiency of a surface's ability to radiate heat depends on its temperature and on the amount of radiant heat falling on it. So something with as complex a shape as the Apollo lunar module will necessary have some facets facing others. Figuring out how to engineer the passive thermal properties of those surfaces is a simultaneous-solution problem with no closed form. As many of you can probably guess, we use finite-element models with adaptive refinement running on very fast computers to solve these problems. Grumman pioneered this technique when designing the lunar module: their finite-element model had a whopping 13 elements.
I just showed this post to my 21 year old son, who last week finished his junior year as an engineering student at Western Carolina University. He was especially blown away by that last sentence.
 
"Lighten up, Jay, it was just a tabloid magazine," I hear from time to time. No, for some people Apollo was their life's work. They suffered for it in high blood pressure, baldness, failed marriages, children they never got to see grow up, and for a few, in actual blood and ashes. They weren't faking it, and they can prove it. They deserve better than for some self-important ringmaster to make his living calling them liars.
Exactly. These people were genuine heroes. It's bad enough to see people malign their achievements out of ignorance and foolishness, but especially galling when people ◊◊◊◊ on their astonishing achievements with deliberate lies just to grift those aforementioned ignorant fools out of a buck.
 
He was especially blown away by that last sentence.
I'm glad he got a kick out of it. Imagine punching in coordinates for the surfaces manually on an IBM 029 card punch and then interpreting the results on a green-and-white printout instead of just looking at a color-coded graphic on a screen.
 
Exactly. These people were genuine heroes. It's bad enough to see people malign their achievements out of ignorance and foolishness, but especially galling when people ◊◊◊◊ on their astonishing achievements with deliberate lies just to grift those aforementioned ignorant fools out of a buck.
There's the usual straw man, "Are you saying we should never question authority?"

Of course not. If someone claims they've done an extraordinary thing, you should expect evidence. But questioning that evidence from a position of ignorance and ignoring the answers is no longer "questioning authority" or "just asking questions." It's just ignorant denialism. No one is obliged to give that any respect. This kind of engineering does not tolerate mediocrity.

Plus, there's so much evidence. Hoax claimants ignore the bulk of it because frankly it's way over their heads.
 
Recently the SGU had a quite good discussion about the difference between earned expertise and granted authority, and how they are very much not the same thing, and yet many people seem to think that someone who is appointed as an authority on a subject should be accorded the same respect with regards to that subject as someone who had earned expertise in it. The Trump administration, for example, is full of people who have appointed authority but no earned expertise.

You should definitely always question granted authority.
 
Disappointingly late to this party, but to add a few things on the usual canards (apologies if they've already been done):

The Soviets could and absolutely did monitor the missions in every way you can think of. They also had access to US meteorological satellite imagery that would have matched their own and shown that the views of Earth were accurate. They had all the evidence they needed (see here https://onebigmonkey.com/apollo/CATM2/ch5/7/zond.html ).

Baysinger was not the only source of mission FM transmissions - it was a bit of a hobby for many radio hams and transmissions from many of the missions were intercepted (see https://onebigmonkey.com/apollo/CATM2/ch5/11/remote.html ).

What's often not mentioned in the images of Aldrin (and the much claimed 'hotspots' that allegedly prove studio lights) is that the foreground is disturbed by them walkng around. This completely changes the way light is scattered compared with the completely undisturbed background.

Images from China, India and Japan all verify the presence of humans on the moon.

Marus Allen was a grifting fraud. He showed no respect to anyone when he was alive, he doesn't deserve any now he's dead.

There are absolutely no questions about the Apollo missions that can't be answered by the tiniest amount of research and logical thought. Most of the people "Just asking questions" have already decided on their answer, are demanding evidence they hope doesn't exist and then move goalposts when they find it does, and rely very heavily on a self-penned zoo management handbook. They'll happily cite 'experts' (real or otherwise) with a PhD in laundry systems management but dismiss the expertise of actual rocket scientists They'll quote from self-published books that rehash the same badly researched garbage because, hey, in it's in an actual book, but completely ignore the thousands of peer-reviewed academic papers and first-person accounts of the actual participants in every aspect of the program you can think of.

What's been hilarious about the Artemis missions is the desperate scrambling by usually knee-jerk contrarians to retro-fit any kind of hoax claim into it. The misison is genuine and proves Apollo was hoaxed, the mission is hoaxed and therefore Apollo was hoaxed. They did things the same therefore Artemis was hoaxed. They did things differently therefore Apollo was hoaxed. The astronauts didn't take photos with one trouser leg rolled up while reciting potry, therefore the photos are faked. Anyone with a grift is latching onto the clicks for cash and their marks just suck it up unquestioningly while calling the rest of us sheep.

For one brief minute, Artemis gave us some joy in the face of some pretty damned awful global news, just like Apollo did. Some people just don't want that.
 
I just noticed that Buzz's left arm and leg are slightly lighter than the rest of his front.

This really shows up in the video from the later missions, since video has less dynamic range than film. There are times the astronauts look like glare on legs.
What is lighting up the interior of the capsule, given the sun is behind it? Can't be the suit, no matter how bright.

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