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Apollo 11 Moon Landing Revisited: Hoax ~vs~ Debunk

Vixen said:
Radiation certainly does affect the gelatin in a film.

IJCS-20-82_Shaheen.pdf https://share.google/oE2oiBpKxwlE4WwXQ


It's a perfectly valid point for Allen to make. There is nothing 'busted' about it.
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That paper is about the effects of ultraviolet radiation on silver gelatin, nothing to do with your claim about galactic cosmic radiation
 
Vixen said:
Radiation certainly does affect the gelatin in a film.

IJCS-20-82_Shaheen.pdf https://share.google/oE2oiBpKxwlE4WwXQ


It's a perfectly valid point for Allen to make. There is nothing 'busted' about it.
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You are flogging a dead horse.

JayUtah already explained the difference between the type and intensity of damage caused by cosmic rays, which can penetrate the film magazines, and by other forms of radiation. An example photo showing cosmic ray damage was provided. You either have not understood what was patiently explained or you have decided to ignore it and repeat your error.

The paper you have just posted concerns accumulated damage caused to old photographs displayed in museums, by their long term exposure to daylight, in particular its ultraviolet component. It's rather obviously not relevant here. Why did you think it was worth posting?
 
theprestige said:
NASA: Take as many photos as you can. Don't get stuck on quality. Just do your best.

Vixen: The amount of photos per mission hour is suspicious.
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Another thing that most people, especially CTs, don't realize is that Apollo 11 was the last of the Manned Development Missions and was, from NASA's perspective, not the culmination of the program, but rather the last of the "can we do this?" steps. As such, the EVA was quite brief. A few ALSEP pieces were put down and photos taken, but the main mission objective was to land, get out, get back in and launch back to orbit to rendezvous with the CSM. The whole schedule was so tight they elected to not even set up the high gain antenna, requiring the use of the Westinghouse slow scan TV camera.
 
Turning into another car crash of a thread. But I'm sticking with it, because, despite the CT nonsense being spouted, the rebuttals by knowledgeable contributors (I don't know how you have the patience) means there's always something to learn. I particularly enjoyed learning how the Hasseblad cameras were set up with set focus ranges to make use of the depth of field range, I remember doing similar in my early (pre-autofocus) SLR days.

Oh, and that the astronauts were told, "the key to your immortality is the quality of your photography" and so they took the cameras home and practiced like mad.

Putting the E in ISF, or something like that.
 
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Vixen said:
Radiation certainly does affect the gelatin in a film.

IJCS-20-82_Shaheen.pdf https://share.google/oE2oiBpKxwlE4WwXQ


It's a perfectly valid point for Allen to make. There is nothing 'busted' about it.
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It's a moot point because the film base used by Apollo was polyester and not gelatin, as Jay explained. And you're still wrong about pressurization shielding against GCRs.
 
JesseCuster said:
That paper is about the effects of ultraviolet radiation on silver gelatin, nothing to do with your claim about galactic cosmic radiation
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And it's the silver salts in the emulsion that respond to the UV, not the gelatin in the film base. The reactivity of silver salts to UV is how UV was discovered in the first place.
 
Vixen said:
Radiation certainly does affect the gelatin in a film.
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Ektachrome emulsion is not silver gelatin print; it is a dye-coupled process. Ultraviolet radiation is not cosmic or solar particle radiation, gamma, or x-rays, and cannot penetrate the film magazine. As long as you're frantically Googling, Google for relevant answers instead of more ignorantly misguided "ammunition."
 
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zooterkin said:
How about actually engaging with the rest of the contributors to the thread, rather than Gish Galloping when your latest 'point' has been answered (as, in fact, all of them were, decades ago)?
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Engaging meaningfully would mean admitting all the obvious, colossal mistakes she's been making out of ignorance along the way. When doing the activity that dares not mention its name at ISF, you have to keep Gish-galloping on the attack. This is what every conspiracy theorist does: fill the zone with crap so fast that the truth can't keep up.

JesseCuster said:
Vixen has previously assured us that she is very much a "numbers person". She doesn't make these kind of elementary mistakes.
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But she does have quite a track record of mixing up minutes and seconds.
 
Reformed Offlian said:
Right. At some point gelatin as film base crept into the discussion. Traditional film base would be cellulose?
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Cellulose acetate. By the 1990s Kodak was using mostly polyester. The base used for Apollo was thinbase, which had been used in aerial spy cameras and wasn't generally commercially available. It's amazingly thin, like cling wrap. We had some U-2 cameras at the museum that still had some thinroll in them. (They came with the U-2.) But when we sent the cameras off to be conserved they came back without the film. I didn't have a chance to grab any.

Reformed Offlian said:
And it's the silver salts in the emulsion that respond to the UV...
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To be sure, UV will affect the film as it's being exposed—as in, through the lens. That's a problem in more modern photography with higher-speed film. On Earth we solve it by using UV filters. I habitually keep on on my lenses all the time. For Apollo photography with its slower reversal film, the effect is manifest mostly in a blue tint shift. The process is already formulated to correct for terrestrially-occurring UV. You just alter it to accommodate more UV for space use. This is akin to the way film used to be formulated differently for the color temperatures of artificial versus natural light. UV in space doesn't damage the film during the exposure. It just gives you undesirable colors.

The emulsion medium is "organic" only in the sense that it's a gelatin made of the same kind of hydrolyzed collagen that glue and Jell-O are made from: cow hooves. You add things to make it temperature stable. You let it outgas in a vacuum first if you're going to use it in space. But at the end of the process it hardly matters that it started out as an animal fingernail protein. It's no more susceptible to—or damaged by—radiation (of all kinds) than a sheet of paper.

Living organic tissue is another matter. That has to be protected from radiation for the obvious reason of protecting its role in biological processes. The kind of protection required depends on the kind and amount of radiation.

The use of animal-derived products in high-tech applications is ultimately responsible for the apparent loss of the Apollo 11 telemetry tapes. The binder on the Memorex telemetry tapes incorporated sperm whale oil to lubricate the tape's passage through the mechanism. Telemetry recorders run at a very high speed compared to audio recorders. Surprisingly there was no synthetic alternative. Attempts to formulate one resulting in gumming up—hydrolysis—that whale oil doesn't do. Yes, the space program ran on whale oil.

Beginning in the 1970s, the increased attention paid to sustainability and animal rights meant solving the hydrolysis problem. Memorex had solved it for slower audio tape. They believed they had solved it for high-speed telemetry tape. Testing by NASA proved them wrong, however. This created a crisis as other space missions were in progress and needed tape to record the real-time data being sent back. This forced NASA to have to reuse Apollo-era tapes (the whale oil ones). Only later did they discover they had most probably recorded over Apollo 11's telemetry. Ordinarily that would be no great loss, as telemetry is about as exciting as watching paint dry, and all the engineeringly-interesting bits had been copied out to paper strip charts anyway. But in Apollo 11's case, the television signal was embedded in the telemetry. Recently we've been able to read some old telemetry tapes and use digital techniques to eke more signal out of the analog recording. With much sadness we realize we could have extracted the original television signal and cleaned it up.

But the larger lesson is that high-tech chemical engineering and materials science is forever playing catch-up. Sometimes nature provides, and we should respect that.
 
Foster Zygote said:
Another thing that most people, especially CTs, don't realize is that Apollo 11 was the last of the Manned Development Missions and was, from NASA's perspective, not the culmination of the program, but rather the last of the "can we do this?" steps.
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Correct, it was a G-type mission, which were classified as test flights. Apollo 12 was the first operational Apollo mission. -12, -13, and -14 were H-type missions. The rest were J-type missions. They differed mostly in duration, but also in equipment (including the spaceship) and objectives. When Apollo was cancelled, they didn't just cut the end of the program off. They took away some H-type missions and some J-type missions. Apollo 15 was originally an H-type mission, but it was reclassified as a J-type mission. Its lunar module, LM-9, had already been built—but as an H-type ship. You can't fly a J-type mission with an H-type lunar module. So suddenly LM-9 was a spaceship without a mission, and is now a museum piece.

Foster Zygote said:
...the main mission objective was to land, get out, get back in and launch back to orbit to rendezvous with the CSM.
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Apollo 11's mission objective, in its entirety, was: To perform a manned lunar landing and return. Even getting out was optional. Yes, it would have been pretty lawyerly to just land and immediately take off, but those were the political stakes. When you're in government contracting and you're facing a deadline, you get pretty lawyerly with the actual written word of the project objectives. There was even a contingency for Aldrin to stay in the ship and let Armstrong grab a quick sample and climb back in immediately.

Foster Zygote said:
The whole schedule was so tight they elected to not even set up the high gain antenna, requiring the use of the Westinghouse slow scan TV camera.
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...and cramming the signal into the telemetry that could be sent via the LM's own high-gain antenna. Also the phone call from Pres. Nixon landed right in the middle of a busy schedule. It wasn't entirely welcome, but as we're learning—the President is the President even when it's annoying and intrusive.
 
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