Cont: Electric Vehicles II

[jadebox]

I guess its different here in the UK. I picked up a Dacia Spring Elements for £10,500 from a dealer. Sure its range on a charge is 120 miles, but given I live in an urban area its perfect and a lot more economic than a petrol car even before the latest unpleasantness in the Middle East.

I have mentioned before that my first EV was a BMI i3.

I bought it because I was able to buy a much nicer car for about the same price as a Honda Fit that I had been considering. My i3 had a maximum range of about 70 miles on a charge, but I was only driving about 25 miles a day to and from work so that was never an issue.

The i3 was designed from the ground up as a city car. Even though I don't live a really urban environment, I loved some features of that car. It was big for a small car (the Tardis effect). It turned on a dime (I could quickly do a three-point turn in my driveway). And I never had to stop to fill it with gas. Plus, I was saving enough over the cost of gas to cover about half the loan payment each month.

Anyway, I posted all of that to make the point that, at least here in the US, people are too hung up on range. They refuse to even consider an EV if its range is less than 300 miles, never considering how far they actually drive in a day. And, yes, there is an obsession with large vehicles here. It is driven, at least partially, by the mistaken belief that SUVs are safer than cars.

And people with children seem to think an SUV is more practical even though you almost have to pick up small kids and toss them into an SUV when minivans have those nice sliding doors with lower openings.

A vehicle is a big investment and people should buy what they want. But, I really don't think they take much time to consider what they really need.

End of rant.

ETA: Since I no longer drive to work every day, my current EV is the car I wanted rather than one I needed.

 

[Rolfe]

A vehicle is a big investment and people should buy what they want. But, I really don't think they take much time to consider what they really need.

This is an extremely good point. Pretty much all the disaster stories going round about EVs boil down to someone having the wrong car. (Or, very occasionally, to having bought a "Friday afternoon car".)

Sometimes it's a cost-saving boss who has decided (wisely) to switch to EVs to save money, but then hasn't understood how to choose a car that will do what he's asking his staff to do, and settled on something unsuitable - again for cost reasons. So there are people out there who were forced to drive a short-range, slow-charging car all over the country for business purposes, and are understandably hacked off. Can't blame them.

Sometimes it's someone who did that to himself. Was seduced by a sales pitch and didn't think to ask the right questions about battery size and charging speed (sometimes not even "does it have DC charging?"), and how it will perform in normal winter conditions as opposed to the summer range that's highlighted. Disillusionment usually sets in about November.

Sometimes it's someone who was an early enthusiast who bought something like a gen 1 Leaf or a Zoe ten years ago, and suffered from all the obvious problems and it turned out they weren't that much of an enthusiast when they found out what they had to put up with.

So we get all the horror stories, repeated and repeated, and few people seem to realise that we're not in 2016 any more, and that the public charging network really isn't that bad and is getting better all the time, and that cars which will go far enough and charge fast enough not to be significantly slower than a petrol car (so long as you're not driving dangerously by not taking sensible breaks) are widely available. Or that second-hand cars are available at good prices for the people who say, but I can't afford one of these. (And that battery longevity isn't an issue that should concern a used-car buyer.)

One of the issues is that with a petrol car bought for city use, you can take it on a road trip now and again with no more inconvenience than a couple of extra five-minute fuel stops. So people don't really think about these occasional trips when buying a car mainly for 20-50 mile maximum daily journeys. Then the holiday comes up, and they start moaning. But even so, most new "city" cars are coming with batteries around 50 kwh, and I'm here to tell you that you can road trip a 50 kwh car perfectly well so long as you're not in a tearing hurry. I often do 450 miles in mine, and 500 miles is perfectly possible.

Another issue is winter range. Don't look at the summer range the dealer tells you about. Find out a realistic winter range (allowing for the fact that you're not going to drive the car down to 0%, and on a road trip you're not going to charge it to 100% either) and base your decisions on that. Summer is gravy.

And mainly, 2020 called. It wants its scare stories back.

 

[acbytesla]

This is an extremely good point. Pretty much all the disaster stories going round about EVs boil down to someone having the wrong car. (Or, very occasionally, to having bought a "Friday afternoon car".)

Sometimes it's a cost-saving boss who has decided (wisely) to switch to EVs to save money, but then hasn't understood how to choose a car that will do what he's asking his staff to do, and settled on something unsuitable - again for cost reasons. So there are people out there who were forced to drive a short-range, slow-charging car all over the country for business purposes, and are understandably hacked off. Can't blame them.

Sometimes it's someone who did that to himself. Was seduced by a sales pitch and didn't think to ask the right questions about battery size and charging speed (sometimes not even "does it have DC charging?"), and how it will perform in normal winter conditions as opposed to the summer range that's highlighted. Disillusionment usually sets in about November.

Sometimes it's someone who was an early enthusiast who bought something like a gen 1 Leaf or a Zoe ten years ago, and suffered from all the obvious problems and it turned out they weren't that much of an enthusiast when they found out what they had to put up with.

So we get all the horror stories, repeated and repeated, and few people seem to realise that we're not in 2016 any more, and that the public charging network really isn't that bad and is getting better all the time, and that cars which will go far enough and charge fast enough not to be significantly slower than a petrol car (so long as you're not driving dangerously by not taking sensible breaks) are widely available. Or that second-hand cars are available at good prices for the people who say, but I can't afford one of these. (And that battery longevity isn't an issue that should concern a used-car buyer.)

Understanding what you're buying is everything. My friend who lives off grid purchased a Ford Lightning truck on EV. He is not the kind of person
One of the issues is that with a petrol car bought for city use, you can take it on a road trip now and again with no more inconvenience than a couple of extra five-minute fuel stops. So people don't really think about these occasional trips when buying a car mainly for 20-50 mile maximum daily journeys. Then the holiday comes up, and they start moaning. But even so, most new "city" cars are coming with batteries around 50 kwh, and I'm here to tell you that you can road trip a 50 kwh car perfectly well so long as you're not in a tearing hurry. I often do 450 miles in mine, and 500 miles is perfectly possible.

Another issue is winter range. Don't look at the summer range the dealer tells you about. Find out a realistic winter range (allowing for the fact that you're not going to drive the car down to 0%, and on a road trip you're not going to charge it to 100% either) and base your decisions on that. Summer is gravy.

And mainly, 2020 called. It wants its scare stories back.

Understanding what you're buying is everything. If you don't, you're only asking to be disappointed.

My good friend purchased a Ford Lightning. He lives off grid in Northern Idaho. He has quite a bit of solar and I want to say 60 KWh of battery storage. He bought the Lightning because he could use the Lightning's battery bank as additional home battery storage because of the V2G feature. In theory this sounds great. But when he might need this inevitably is the dead of winter when the battery and the solar are performing at their worst. He traded it in after 1 year. He would have kept it if he was attached to the grid. But having to go to the town to charge the Lightning was too inconvenient.

The problem is the winter and the range. During summer months driving

 

[Rolfe]

It's a good idea. I know someone who is doing something slightly similar, using an MG4's VtL instead of a petrol generator to power an off-grid house (that has both solar and a wind turbine) on dull, windless winter days. His nearest charger is seven miles away. But if you're not prepared for the trips to the charger, then don't do it.

 

[acbytesla]

Delete

 

[acbytesla]

It's a good idea. I know someone who is doing something slightly similar, using an MG4's VtL instead of a petrol generator to power an off-grid house (that has both solar and a wind turbine) on dull, windless winter days. His nearest charger is seve miles away. But if you're not prepared for the trips to the charger, then don't do it.

Yeah, that was the problem. Driving in the snow off his mountain to the charger, which wasn't near businesses, sitting for an hour in the cold and then driving back began to be a tiresome necessity. The alternative was using his military diesel generator or the propane generator. Which was costly.

 

[Rolfe]

The charger my friend uses is in the village with shops and restaurants nearby.

 

[acbytesla]

It's a good idea. I know someone who is doing something slightly similar, using an MG4's VtL instead of a petrol generator to power an off-grid house (that has both solar and a wind turbine) on dull, windless winter days. His nearest charger is seven miles away. But if you're not prepared for the trips to the charger, then don't do it.

The charger my friend uses is in the village with shops and restaurants nearby.

My friend loved the truck and loved the idea. He especially loved it during the summer when he pretty much drove it for free. The things he didn't like about it was the cold winter diminished the range substantially. Much more than he expected . It was as much as 20 to 25% less than it was in the summer. And because full charging takes much longer than 80% charging range is diminished even further. He wanted it to work and it might have if the fast charger was closer to his house and a supermarket and a couple of restaurants.

Might be a lesson to know ahead of purchasing what it is like for the specific individual what to expect what charging is like.

 

[Rolfe]

Yes. I keep saying, find out about the winter range and think about your winter usage. Take that as your baseline. If that works for you, summer is gravy.

 

[acbytesla]

The problem with that IMV is understanding how the winter where any individual lives affects all of this. One might think they know, but unless your info comes from a local with an EV you wouldn't. Imagine having a full tank and discovering a week later the car is only 80 percent full. This is a real effect that people with gasoline cars don't deal with. Or someone who doesn't have to deal with sub-freezing temperatures a couple of months a year.

I'm looking at buying an Ebike and the manufacturer range estimates are significantly exaggerated. It's important to understand what is real and what is marketing.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

I'm looking at buying an Ebike and the manufacturer range estimates are significantly exaggerated. It's important to understand what is real and what is marketing.

With an e-bike, range is very highly correlated with the level of assist you choose.

On my new Canyon Gravel e-bike, my goal is fitness, so I try to use the minimum amount of assist. On the flat, I’ll often use zero, and on hills try to use just level 1 or 2 (out of 4). On this recent ride, I arrived home still showing 70% battery remaining.

 

[acbytesla]

With an e-bike, range is very highly correlated with the level of assist you choose.

On my new Canyon Gravel e-bike, my goal is fitness, so I try to use the minimum amount of assist. On the flat, I’ll often use zero, and on hills try to use just level 1 or 2 (out of 4). On this recent ride, I arrived home still showing 70% battery remaining.

That's just it. The manufacturers range estimates are based on an 80 pound rider using the lowest pedal assist level on paved level ground. What it means for a 200 pound rider at say level 3 out of 5 of pedal assist on mixed terrain is going to be very different.

 

[jadebox]

Imagine having a full tank and discovering a week later the car is only 80 percent full. This is a real effect that people with gasoline cars don't deal with. Or someone who doesn't have to deal with sub-freezing temperatures a couple of months a year.

Most EVs now have far greater range than a person usually drives in a day, so the reduced range in Winter should not be much of an issue. And, although I personally don't have much experience in really cold weather, it is obvious that ICE vehicles also have issues with cold weather, being hard to start for example. They also lose almost as much range (at least for shorter trips) as EVs do. People tend not to notice because most ICE vehicles don't have a big gauge on the dash showing the estimated range.

 

[acbytesla]

Most EVs now have far greater range than a person usually drives in a day, so the reduced range in Winter should not be much of an issue. And, although I personally don't have much experience in really cold weather, it is obvious that ICE vehicles also have issues with cold weather, being hard to start for example. They also lose almost as much range (at least for shorter trips) as EVs do. People tend not to notice because most ICE vehicles don't have a big gauge on the dash showing the estimated range.

I understand all of this. I went to elementary school in Iowa and college in Wisconsin. Below zero degrees Fahrenheit was not uncommon. Many cars there are equipped with block heaters that you plug in to prevent the engine blocks from freezing. Diesels in particular can be hard to start in the winter. Cold temperatures take a toll on EVs and starting batteries. But you don't discover 20 percent of your tank missing.

My point isn't that people shouldn't buy EVs. I think it makes great sense for many. But depending on where you live, you should adjust your expectations.

 

[Rolfe]

That's just it. The manufacturers range estimates are based on an 80 pound rider using the lowest pedal assist level on paved level ground. What it means for a 200 pound rider at say level 3 out of 5 of pedal assist on mixed terrain is going to be very different.

I don't know why they even bother. The first e-bike I looked at quoted a range for a 60 kg rider on the flat at 30C. Frankly that should be forever, who needs assist on a flat road? The one I bought quoted a 90 kg rider on mixed terrain, which is more realistic, but the 90 kg rider must have been bloody fit, because I only get about half the quoted range. I bought the range extender, and it's very good, but I think realistically 50 miles is my lot even with the range extender.

Last week I took the bike to Arran and did two days riding round the island, hampered by a road closure that messed up my plans. I did maybe 70 miles in the two days, and only had to push the bike three times, at most for about 100 yards - also maybe three times I stopped on a hill for a breather but didn't walk on. Not bad for a 13 kg bike with only about 35 Nm of torque really. There were just two stretches of road on the island I wouldn't have touched - and as I was preparing to zoom down one of them I met a woman who had pedalled up that on a more powerful bike just for the fun of going down again. We chatted and she said she was waiting for a hip replacement. Well!

Earlier today I did about 28 miles on a much less hilly road, but I was eating battery just as fast, I think partly because there weren't the downhill stretches to compensate, and partly because I had a headwind on the way back and just threw the assist at it. Anyway, I find that if my ride is less than 40 miles I have charge and to spare with the range extender on, and that's the information I need, not what the manufacturer thinks that Chris Hoy could do on the bike.

So anyway, I love that bike so much (never had an e-bike before) but at the same time I'm trying to push it beyond what it's really set up to do when I get into the Highlands, that I decided I needed another, more powerful model. I'm pushing the boat out and have ordered this.

https://www.orbea.com/hr-en/ebikes/urban/kemen-adv/

Nearly two and a half times the torque of my present bike - 85 Nm - and a wider spread of gears. Also a walk assist and more bells and whistles than you can shake a stick at. A USB socket so your phone, on the handlebar mount, will take power from the bike rather than run out of charge! And you can charge anything else off it if you want. Integral lights. Estimated production date of the second week in May, I can't wait. I keep eyeing up the hill tracks around here, and poring over the OS maps of everything up to and including the Corrieyairack pass.

That's the great thing. You can keep your use of the assist to a minimum if you're trying to improve your fitness, and yet it's still there so you don't have to walk up hills which isn't helping your fitness anyway, or you can say sod it, why bring the electricity if you're not going to use it, I just want to get home! And the advertised range means the square root of bugger-all.

 

[acbytesla]

I don't know why they even bother. The first e-bike I looked at quoted a range for a 60 kg rider on the flat at 30C. Frankly that should be forever, who needs assist on a flat road? The one I bought quoted a 90 kg rider on mixed terrain, which is more realistic, but the 90 kg rider must have been bloody fit, because I only get about half the quoted range. I bought the range extender, and it's very good, but I think realistically 50 miles is my lot even with the range extender.

Last week I took the bike to Arran and did two days riding round the island, hampered by a road closure that messed up my plans. I did maybe 70 miles in the two days, and only had to push the bike three times, at most for about 100 yards - also maybe three times I stopped on a hill for a breather but didn't walk on. Not bad for a 13 kg bike with only about 35 Nm of torque really. There were just two stretches of road on the island I wouldn't have touched - and as I was preparing to zoom down one of them I met a woman who had pedalled up that on a more powerful bike just for the fun of going down again. We chatted and she said she was waiting for a hip replacement. Well!

Earlier today I did about 28 miles on a much less hilly road, but I was eating battery just as fast, I think partly because there weren't the downhill stretches to compensate, and partly because I had a headwind on the way back and just threw the assist at it. Anyway, I find that if my ride is less than 40 miles I have charge and to spare with the range extender on, and that's the information I need, not what the manufacturer thinks that Chris Hoy could do on the bike.

So anyway, I love that bike so much (never had an e-bike before) but at the same time I'm trying to push it beyond what it's really set up to do when I get into the Highlands, that I decided I needed another, more powerful model. I'm pushing the boat out and have ordered this.

https://www.orbea.com/hr-en/ebikes/urban/kemen-adv/

Nearly two and a half times the torque of my present bike - 85 Nm - and a wider spread of gears. Also a walk assist and more bells and whistles than you can shake a stick at. A USB socket so your phone, on the handlebar mount, will take power from the bike rather than run out of charge! And you can charge anything else off it if you want. Integral lights. Estimated production date of the second week in May, I can't wait. I keep eyeing up the hill tracks around here, and poring over the OS maps of everything up to and including the Corrieyairack pass.

That's the great thing. You can keep your use of the assist to a minimum if you're trying to improve your fitness, and yet it's still there so you don't have to walk up hills which isn't helping your fitness anyway, or you can say sod it, why bring the electricity if you're not going to use it, I just want to get home! And the advertised range means the square root of bugger-all.

Looks great. The website sucks though. It also looks like an expensive Trek or Canondale. Two expensive brands found here in the US. Doesn't look like that bike is, available here. I'd love the Trek or Canondale but Im not going to spend $3500 on a an ebike.

Sadly for me, I have a champagne appetite and a beer budget.

 

[Rolfe]

When I got my present bike the very idea of spending that much on an e-bike would have had me in stitches. I found exactly what I wanted for what I was willing to pay. And it's still exactly what I wanted. But riding it has shown me that I want to go beyond its limitations, and that requires a different bike. Fortunately I have the budget if I want it badly enough. In 2024 I didn't know I wanted it. Now I do.

The website sucks, but they're all like that. The Amflow one is even worse and kept freezing my browser. (The new Amflows are very tasty but I don't want rear suspension and my regular bike shop said it was too much bike for me, I needed something set up for gravel tracks and hill climbing, not for jumping rocks.)

I looked at the Trek, but weight was a bit of a deal-breaker. Even taking the battery out of the equivalent Trek bike didn't bring its weight down to the Orbea's weight (the Orbea's battery is not removable). I need to have half a chance of being able to lift the thing into my car.

I was originally looking at a different Orbea (the Urrun), and had a test ride on one, but while we were discussing options the lad in the shop in Edinburgh said, have you considered the Kemen, because that's almost the same bike, but configured the way you're talking about optioning the Urrun. I hadn't, because the Kemen was listed under urban bikes, and I was definitely not looking for an urban bike. He said never mind that, I don't want to confuse you, but maybe take a look. I left the shop, went home and scrutinised the Kemen specifications, and went straight back to the shop the next day and ordered one, saying I would get that in the car come hell or high water, and if I really couldn't I'd fit a towbar for a bike rack, because it was everything I wanted and more. It even has a step-through model, which I have specified.



I am counting the days. My present bike won't be redundant, because it's absolutely perfect for easier runs and I can chuck it in and out of the car in a minute. One of the things I do is put it in the car, drive to the edge of the free parking around Edinburgh, then get the bike out and cycle the rest. Far quicker than the bus and I get bus-sick anyway. And all the local stuff, going to the shop, visiting friends and so on. And local training rides, where not having so much assist is better for fitness. The new bike will take time and effort and ingenuity to get it in the car, and that's something I'll only do if it's worth it. But going on trips to the Highlands where prolonged gradients of over 10%, sometimes well over 10%, are commonplace, makes it really worth it.

 

[acbytesla]

Delete

 

[acbytesla]

When I got my present bike the very idea of spending that much on an e-bike would have had me in stitches. I found exactly what I wanted for what I was willing to pay. And it's still exactly what I wanted. But riding it has shown me that I want to go beyond its limitations, and that requires a different bike. Fortunately I have the budget if I want it badly enough. In 2024 I didn't know I wanted it. Now I do.

The website sucks, but they're all like that. The Amflow one is even worse and kept freezing my browser. (The new Amflows are very tasty but I don't want rear suspension and my regular bike shop said it was too much bike for me, I needed something set up for gravel tracks and hill climbing, not for jumping rocks.)

I looked at the Trek, but weight was a bit of a deal-breaker. Even taking the battery out of the equivalent Trek bike didn't bring its weight down to the Orbea's weight (the Orbea's battery is not removable). I need to have half a chance of being able to lift the thing into my car.

I was originally looking at a different Orbea (the Urrun), and had a test ride on one, but while we were discussing options the lad in the shop in Edinburgh said, have you considered the Kemen, because that's almost the same bike, but configured the way you're talking about optioning the Urrun. I hadn't, because the Kemen was listed under urban bikes, and I was definitely not looking for an urban bike. He said never mind that, I don't want to confuse you, but maybe take a look. I left the shop, went home and scrutinised the Kemen specifications, and went straight back to the shop the next day and ordered one, saying I would get that in the car come hell or high water, and if I really couldn't I'd fit a towbar for a bike rack, because it was everything I wanted and more. It even has a step-through model, which I have specified.

View attachment 70963

I am counting the days. My present bike won't be redundant, because it's absolutely perfect for easier runs and I can chuck it in and out of the car in a minute. One of the things I do is put it in the car, drive to the edge of the free parking around Edinburgh, then get the bike out and cycle the rest. Far quicker than the bus and I get bus-sick anyway. And all the local stuff, going to the shop, visiting friends and so on. And local training rides, where not having so much assist is better for fitness. The new bike will take time and effort and ingenuity to get it in the car, and that's something I'll only do if it's worth it. But going on trips to the Highlands where prolonged gradients of over 10%, sometimes well over 10%, are commonplace, makes it really worth it.

This brand doesn't look like it's available at all in the US. I was trying to find the weight spec on your bike at the website but I couldn't find it on it. And when I say the website sucks I mean it. It really displays terribly on my Samsung Android tablet. There are lots of brands in Europe you would be hard pressed to find over here. Especially the Chinese brands.

 

[Rolfe]

You have to email them and ask specifically. It really isn't there, they say they don't publish the weights. 23 kg.

In fact, before the manufacturer answered my email I was reduced to getting the guy in the shop to weigh the bike he has in stock.

I was hoping to get down to 19 kg if I could, but it's not really possible unless the bike is really stripped down. I think the Amflow just about comes in there. However, I could pick up and turn over the bike in the shop, so that's a decent start. Also, the woman I mentioned above who is waiting for a hip replacement said she could lift her bike into her car as it was. It was a Cube, a make I had discounted because the bikes all seemed so heavy, so if she can manage that I might be on a better wicket than I thought I was. She was looking for a new, more modern and lighter bike though, so I showed her the Orbea and she was going to take a look. They should pay me commission.

(You know you can replace your "deleted" post with your new one if you're still within the edit window - you don't have to create a second post.)