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Split Thread DEI in the US

d4m10n said:
He seemed to be saying that they might be less competent on account of programs designed to increase the number of minorities who make it into flight training. Those diversity programs actually did exist at the Air Force Academy (graduates of which are disproportionally represented in USAF undergraduate pilot training, graduates of which are historically overrepresented in commercial aviation) until the second Trump administration, but there aren't really any data showing that the quality of pilots has decreased as a result of diversity initiatives in place at any level. I would be surprised if such data were forthcoming since those programs can afford to be remarkably selective about who gets a desk on day one of ground school and can also afford a high washout rate. That said, I would also be surprised if Charlie Kirk fanboys decided to take a data-driven analytical approach to this or any other problem.

If you want to try to extend Kirk's "logic" to doctors, feel free, but I doubt anyone here is going to seriously try to make that argument.

Perhaps you can find an anti-DEI ideologue who already has?
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Didn't Kirk himself say that black Doctors (and surgeons in particular) are all DEI hires?

“When it comes to pilots or surgeons , if I see somebody who is Black, as I said on the show, I’m going to hope that that person is qualified. That’s what I said, which of course is legitimate because they’re begging the question, we’re not hiring based on merit anymore. We’re hiring based on race.”
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theprestige said:
No he did not, as your citation makes clear.

With all the legitimate reasons to hate the guy, why make things up?
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I think you must have read a different quote.

Rather than the one that I just posted, where he said:

"somebody who is Black, as I said on the show, I’m going to hope that that person is qualified"

"We're not hiring on merit anymore. We're hiring based on race."

I even highlighted the part where he said surgeons.

So, right back at you.

Why are you lying about this?
 
novaphile said:
I think you must have read a different quote.

Rather than the one that I just posted, where he said:

"somebody who is Black, as I said on the show, I’m going to hope that that person is qualified"

"We're not hiring on merit anymore. We're hiring based on race."

I even highlighted the part where he said surgeons.

So, right back at you.

Why are you lying about this?
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If I get wheeled into the E.R. and get a young black doctor, I'm not going to hope anything. I'm going to be extremely worried. That's because under DEI the medical school admissions requirements were lowered for black students. That means that ON AVERAGE black medical students were less qualified than white ones. Is that so ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ hard to understand?
 
jt512 said:
In case anyone is interested in the actual objections to DEI in the U.S. (as opposed to the imagined, racist ones), Distinguished Professor of Psychology Lee Jussim has published a comprehensive summary of them here. As Lee clearly states, this is not a balanced discussion of DEI because arguments in favor or DEI are already discussed all over the place. The purpose of Lee's article is explicitly to summarize the arguments against.

Below, is how Lee summarizes them:

Summary of the Arguments Critical of DEI and DEI Statements​

These are the themes I have abstracted from the large literature critical of DEI and each appears as a heading below, under which you can find several sources. The themes are not completely independent, one theme often augments, strengthens or is synergistic with another. Nonetheless, I found it worthwhile to divide the themes into these groupings:
  • Meritocratic Beliefs are Strong Predictors of Low Discrimination
  • Diversity Does Not Produce Its Promised Benefits
  • DEI Has Unintended Negative Side Effects
  • DEI Demonizes “Oppressor” Groups
  • DEI is Deceptive, Disingenuous, and/or Involves Outright Lies
  • DEI is a Litmus Test for Subjective, Progressive-Approved Political Activism and Values
  • In Many Places, Including NIH and Elite Universities, DEI Implementation Has Been, is, or May Be Illegal in the U.S.
  • DEI is Harmful to Academic Freedom and Free Inquiry
  • DEI Statements are Loyalty Oaths that Violate First Amendment Protections Against Compelled Speech
  • DEI Bureaucracies’ Cost Exceeds Their Value or Do More Harm than Good
  • DEI Worsens a Range of Academic Mal/Dysfunctions
See Lee's article if you are interested in the details.
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Load of dingo's kidneys, in my opinion. Unevidenced, ideology-driven, dingo's kidneys.
 
jt512 said:
If I get wheeled into the E.R. and get a young black doctor, I'm not going to hope anything. I'm going to be extremely worried. That's because under DEI the medical school admissions requirements were lowered for black students. That means that ON AVERAGE
black medical students were less qualified than white ones. Is that so ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ hard to understand?
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But are the black doctors?
 
d4m10n said:
What is your strongest evidence for this claim?
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I don't know if you're asking on principle or whether you've been living under rock since, like, 1978 (UC v. Bakke). It's barely even a contested issue. The evidence is overwhelming, public, and ubiquitous. Put succinctly:

"Nationally, the [2023] average GPA for white [medical school] matriculants was a 3.8 and the average MCAT was 512.4, while Asian matriculants had an average GPA of 3.83 in and an average MCAT of 514.3. Yet black matriculants had an average GPA of 3.59 and an average MCAT of 505.7." Source: https://donoharmmedicine.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/1_Complaint-1.pdf
 
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erwinl said:
But are the black doctors?
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On average, compared to whites and Asians, black medical students have lower MCAT scores and undergraduate GPAs, they score lower on the Medical Student Performance Evaluation (by a full standard deviation), and they score lower on the U.S. Medical Licensing Exam. What do you think?
 
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jt512 said:
On average, compared to whites and Asians, black medical students have lower MCAT scores and undergraduate GPAs, they score lower on the Medical Student Performance Evaluation (by a full standard deviation), and they score lower on the U.S. Medical Licensing Exam. What do you think?
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How did the 'whites' do against the 'asians' ?

From friends who went through medical school, the dangerous students, and later Doctors, were the children of rich parents.

The system that allowed those students in through patronage, was highly suspect.
 
jt512 said:
I don't know if you're asking on principle or whether you've been living under rock...
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The relevant principle here is that the burden of evidence is upon the person making the claim. I don't believe that should be remotely controversial on a forum about scientific skepticism and evidence based reasoning.
jt512 said:
Source: https://donoharmmedicine.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/1_Complaint-1.pdf
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You can find more up-to-date data in table A-18 here, from a neutral source rather than an advocacy group.

Mean African American MCAT scores at just over 507 put them in the middle of the pack at medical schools like University of Arkansas, Florida State, Michigan State, Central Michigan, or Wright State University. (I have fond memories of that last one from my grad school days.) Not exactly elite universities, but fine programs producing perfectly serviceable doctors.

Imagine someone with only one year of college under their belt saying "When I see a doctor wearing an Arkansas Razorbacks hat, I’m going to hope that that person is qualified." Sounds silly, doesn't it?
 
d4m10n said:
The relevant principle here is that the burden of evidence is upon the person making the claim. I don't believe that should be remotely controversial on a forum about scientific skepticism and evidence based reasoning.

You can find more up-to-date data in table A-18 here, from a neutral source rather than an advocacy group.

Mean African American MCAT scores at just over 507 put them in the middle of the pack at medical schools like University of Arkansas, Florida State, Michigan State, Central Michigan, or Wright State University. (I have fond memories of that last one from my grad school days.) Not exactly elite universities, but fine programs producing perfectly serviceable doctors.
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The national figures from Table A-18 show the same thing as the national numbers I posted from the "advocacy group" (that recently won essentially the same Supreme Court case against Harvard and UNC).

National average scores for Asian, White, and Black matriculants (Table A-18), respectively:

MCAT: 514.3, 512.3, 507.2
GPA: 3.85, 3.82, 3.65

d4m10n said:
Imagine someone with only one year of college under their belt saying "When I see a doctor wearing an Arkansas Razorbacks hat, I’m going to hope that that person is qualified." Sounds silly, doesn't it?
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Not really.

You're smart enough to know that you cherry picked those colleges and to have seen that the national figures from that same table practically duplicate the national figures that I posted. It is not even an open secret that medical schools (especially elite ones) give admission preferences to minorities. It's not a secret at all. Until Students for Fair Admissions v. Harvard (2023), they had the explicit permission of the Supreme Court to do so. So, I'm not going to waste any more time playing this game with you.
 
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jt512 said:
National average scores for Asian, White, and Black matriculants (Table A-18), respectively:

MCAT: 514.3, 512.3, 507.2
GPA: 3.85, 3.82, 3.65
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There's a lot of regional variation. Average MCAT scores for matriculants, from Table A-20:
509.4Kansas
507.3North Dakota
509.2South Dakota
509.2Alabama
509.1Arkansas
508.7Kentucky
508.7Louisiana
506.0Mississippi
509.1Oklahoma
509.9South Carolina
507.4West Virginia
508.6Alaska
508.0Montana
509.4Nevada
507.9New Mexico
508.0Wyoming
That's the complete list of states whose average MCAT score for matriculants was less than 510.

Looking at those states, and trying to figure out what they might have in common, it occurs to me that New Mexico is the only state in that list that Donald Trump didn't win in the 2024 presidential election. Maybe I should try to avoid Republican doctors.

More seriously, someone might want to look into how much of the variation in MCAT scores by race can be attributed to how the demographics of race vary from state to state. And then compare whatever that correlation may be with the correlation between low MCAT scores and the Republican party.
 
When I see a doctor wearing an NDSU hat, I’m going to hope that that person is qualified.
 
Maybe all of those lower scoring states are populated by only black medical matriculants....

I mean, that's the logical conclusion one must draw from MAGA reasoning.
 
jt512 said:
Until Students for Fair Admissions v. Harvard (2023), they had the explicit permission of the Supreme Court to do so.
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I'd be surprised if anyone here is willing to make the argument that Harvard was morally correct to discriminate against Asian American applicants by granting them subjective "personal ratings" indicating they are statistically much less socially desirable than their peers. If consistently perceiving Asian Americans as relatively unlikeable doesn't reflect racial bias, what possibly could?
 
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