Global Geographic Literacy Survey

[Grammatron]

This not only leads to more foreigners visiting the US, but also to more people in the US vacationing in other parts of the US.

And for the most part, it costs less time and money than a European Vacation would, as Ny pointed out.

 

[drkitten]

You can't be practical until you know the theory.

This is nonsense.

Just as an example -- electrical engineers were using frequency domain analysis for decades, because it demonstrably worked, before the mathematicians caught up and provided a theoretical proof that it actually worked.

Pencillin was shown to kill bacteria via a very practical demonstration -- it took something like fifty years before the biochemists were able to explain exactly how and why it did.

Edison's search for the filament for his first lightbulb is the stuff of legend. He tried everything -- something like a thousand different materials, with no rhyme or reason. The one that actually produced light without burning up was the one he used, without caring about why it in particular worked.

And, of course, the Wright brothers had no training in aeronautical theory whatsoever. What they had was a bicycle shop and a lot of time in which to tinker.

Downplaying the importance of theory only produces people who do things but they don't know what they are doing.

... which is often sufficient as long as things get done.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Should vacation time figure into any comparisons of tourism rates? It is my understanding that the average American gets significantly less vacation time from his employer than does the average European. I think there are probably a very large number of Americans who would like to experience international travel, but simply do not have the time.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Should vacation time figure into any comparisons of tourism rates? It is my understanding that the average American gets significantly less vacation time from his employer than does the average European. I think there are probably a very large number of Americans who would like to experience international travel, but simply do not have the time.

Good point. And I think it should also figure in the cost of the trip too. I once looked at taking a trip to Japan and was put off by the fact that everything, hotel, food, etc, cost about three times what it cost here. But if I were Japanese, everyting would cost 1/3 what it cost at home. So I not a whit surprised that more Jpanaese visit America than vice versa. For them it's a cheap vacation, for us its a very pricey one.

 

[CFLarsen]

The problem is more business people would be "forced" to travel to the largest economy than from it.

Further more, most business people do not have a choice in what country or region they go to and do so as a condition of their employment. Thus I do not see any value in including them in these statistics as they do not accurately represent people who are interested in world-wide travel.

But a great many Europeans work for and make business with American companies, so it goes both ways.

Maybe, but your original claim was "People from all over the world come to the US. But Americans don't come to the rest of the world.", not "more people come to the US than leave it" And my numbers showed that in 2003 a shade under 10% of all Americans DID 'come to the rest of the world'.

Yeah. And about 1 million - out of 5.5 million - Danes travel abroad as charter tourists alone, each year. Add to that, business travel, and other tourist travels.

I think the BEST apples-to-apples comparison would be one that factors in the relative levels of affluence in various countries. Say, one that show what percentage of people travelled to or from the US whose income is above a certain level that would allow them to travel, because I don't expect the guy working a minimum wage job to be able to visit Paris any time soon. I can't find a study like that so far, though.

You wouldn't expect the average UK working Joe (that would be Jack) to be able to travel, either.

I think a good way of comparing is the share of people who have passports. That's your "ticket" to travelling anyway.

A US passport is valid for 10 years. According to the US Dept. of State, a total of 67,907,994 passports have been issued between 1995 and 2004. Out of a population of 295,734,134, that's 23%.

I can't find the exact data (for once!), but I remember the number to be 80+% for Danes. I can't think of anyone I know - child, adult, octogenarian - who doesn't have a passport. People from Jutland, who has never been to Copenhagen, own passports.

And from my own personal experince, I don't think it is a lack of desire to travel abroad, it is lack of money, time, etc. There isn't a single solitary person I know who doesn't want to go to Rome, or Paris, or Hong Kong or some other place abroad, sometime. If they don't go it's because they can't afford it or can't take that much time off of work, not because they have no desire to see the rest of the world.

This goes against what drkitten argues: That things abroad isn't a big interest to Americans. It is also my experience, I'm afraid.

There is another factor at work too, I think. I know that if I had the money and the time to travel, the one thing that would still be a problem for me is the reception I would get as an American outside of the US. We are not a popular people. It's not that I worry about my safety (any more than I worry about it at home, that is), I worry that I will be treated with hostility. No one wants to spend thousands of dollars to go on a trip to be treated like dirt. I think that factors in to our lack of travel too.

This emphasizes the problem: You expect to be treated like dirt. You'll be surprised how well Americans are, in fact, being received abroad - at least in Europe. Sure, you get the odd snooty response from time to time, but hey, I've been snubbed in European countries as well.

Just because people don't drop and worship you doesn't mean they hate you, you know...

Well, I think you've hit the nail on the head here. The U.S. has a broader vacation appeal than any one other nation. The sheer size and geographical diversity means that you can do much more in the US than say, the United Kingdom. Want to go skiing? Here are the Rockies. Want to bask in the hot sun? Go to Florida. Want family fun themeparks? Go almost anywhere. Geographical wonders? Here's the Grand Canyon. Neon? Las Vegas. Big City with Arts, theatre, Culture? New York is a must see.

This not only leads to more foreigners visiting the US, but also to more people in the US vacationing in other parts of the US.

Certainly. But you don't get different cultures, different languages. It's like going to Disneyland, where you get all kinds of rides, but you basically stay in the same spot.

What is interesting is that, even when you consider these options, France is still ahead of the US:

According to the World Tourism Organization, on May 2001, the United States ranked second behind France and just ahead of Spain for World arrivals in 2000
Source

Yes, Europeans go to France - it's a very popular place. But we also go to other places as well.

This is nonsense.

Just as an example -- electrical engineers were using frequency domain analysis for decades, because it demonstrably worked, before the mathematicians caught up and provided a theoretical proof that it actually worked.

Pencillin was shown to kill bacteria via a very practical demonstration -- it took something like fifty years before the biochemists were able to explain exactly how and why it did.

Edison's search for the filament for his first lightbulb is the stuff of legend. He tried everything -- something like a thousand different materials, with no rhyme or reason. The one that actually produced light without burning up was the one he used, without caring about why it in particular worked.

And, of course, the Wright brothers had no training in aeronautical theory whatsoever. What they had was a bicycle shop and a lot of time in which to tinker.

... which is often sufficient as long as things get done.

I had a feeling it wouldn't be long before Edison came up. I doubt you'll bring up Joe Newman, though.

This is not enough in today's world. We can't tinker with things until they work, while not understanding what we are doing.

Look at how science works: Science doesn't work with The Lone Scientist Working In Solitude. Science is very much a global communal endeavour.

Should vacation time figure into any comparisons of tourism rates? It is my understanding that the average American gets significantly less vacation time from his employer than does the average European. I think there are probably a very large number of Americans who would like to experience international travel, but simply do not have the time.

We do have more vacation time than Americans, but we don't spend all of it travelling. We spend maybe a week or two vacationing, and then spend it at home with the family. I don't think it is a decisive factor.

Americans take time off, too. Especially on Fridays, after 1pm....

Good point. And I think it should also figure in the cost of the trip too. I once looked at taking a trip to Japan and was put off by the fact that everything, hotel, food, etc, cost about three times what it cost here. But if I were Japanese, everyting would cost 1/3 what it cost at home. So I not a whit surprised that more Jpanaese visit America than vice versa. For them it's a cheap vacation, for us its a very pricey one.

But for Danes, it is very pricey to visit the US (even with the lousy dollar value). Heck, it is also pricey to visit France, but we still go.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

I just tried a little experiment. I just went on Travelocity to find out how much it would cost to take my family to go from Reno and visit Copenhagen for two weeks. The best airfare plus the best hotel I could find came out to $3048. I then saw how much it would cost a family with the same composition as mine to go from Copenhagen and visit Reno for the same two weeks, $2332, combined. And it's the height of tourist season over here. Plus that doesn't even take into account the favorable exchange rate that the Euro enjoys when converted to dollars.

I think that goes a long way to explaining why Americans travel abroad less than others visit us. We're a cheap vacation.

 

[Manny]

Hey, maybe here's why. The geography teachers are too busy calling capitalism at odds with human rights and the US a bad, violent place to actually teach geography.




Oops: Edited to add cite.

 

[drkitten]

I think a good way of comparing is the share of people who have passports. That's your "ticket" to travelling anyway.

A US passport is valid for 10 years. According to the US Dept. of State, a total of 67,907,994 passports have been issued between 1995 and 2004. Out of a population of 295,734,134, that's 23%.

I can't find the exact data (for once!), but I remember the number to be 80+% for Danes. I can't think of anyone I know - child, adult, octogenarian - who doesn't have a passport. People from Jutland, who has never been to Copenhagen, own passports.

[snip]

But for Danes, it is very pricey to visit the US (even with the lousy dollar value). Heck, it is also pricey to visit France, but we still go.

I'm afraid you rather argue against yourself here. Part of the reason that every Dane owns a passport is because in most of Europe, including Denmark, you need a passport to own a king-sized bed, since you're likely to find yourself in another country if you roll over.

Okay, I exaggerate slightly. But a relatively short (by US standards) trip of only a few hundred km requires a passport, or did until relatively recently. Can you actually drive 500km in a straight line in Denmark? If you drove (or flew, more likely) 500km due south from Copenhagen, how many national boundaries would you have crossed? There are individual states in the continental US where you can drive 500km in a straight line without leaving the state.

Similarly, Danes tend not to be monolingual because the person at the foot of the bed probably doesn't speak Danish. It's not even a day by train from Osnabrueck to Paris, and it passes through three different linguistic communities. I'm not sure where you'd be able to do that same trick in the United States.

One result of this is that passports and foreign languages are simply more useful to Danes than they are to Americans.

 

[CFLarsen]

I just tried a little experiment. I just went on Travelocity to find out how much it would cost to take my family to go from Reno and visit Copenhagen for two weeks. The best airfare plus the best hotel I could find came out to $3048. I then saw how much it would cost a family with the same composition as mine to go from Copenhagen and visit Reno for the same two weeks, $2332, combined. And it's the height of tourist season over here. Plus that doesn't even take into account the favorable exchange rate that the Euro enjoys when converted to dollars.

I think that goes a long way to explaining why Americans travel abroad less than others visit us. We're a cheap vacation.

The same travel would cost a Danish family (2 adults, 2 kids) $5,600 for airfare alone.

Stop complaining!

 

[Nyarlathotep]

You wouldn't expect the average UK working Joe (that would be Jack) to be able to travel, either.

I think a good way of comparing is the share of people who have passports. That's your "ticket" to travelling anyway.

A US passport is valid for 10 years. According to the US Dept. of State, a total of 67,907,994 passports have been issued between 1995 and 2004. Out of a population of 295,734,134, that's 23%.

I can't find the exact data (for once!), but I remember the number to be 80+% for Danes. I can't think of anyone I know - child, adult, octogenarian - who doesn't have a passport. People from Jutland, who has never been to Copenhagen, own passports.

Yeah, but correct me I am wrong, but don't Europeans use passports for day to day identification purposes, much the same way we use drivers licenses over here? I have heard that, but I don;t know how much truth there is to it. If its true, though, that would explain much of it. Then there is the size factor. If I needed a passport to visit California, I'd probably ahve one too.

This goes against what drkitten argues: That things abroad isn't a big interest to Americans. It is also my experience, I'm afraid.

I can't speak for anyones interest except my own in the culture, history, etc, of any place. But I can't think of a single fellow American that I personally know who doesn't have some palce abroad that he or she would like to visit some day. I don't know what else to say.

This emphasizes the problem: You expect to be treated like dirt. You'll be surprised how well Americans are, in fact, being received abroad - at least in Europe. Sure, you get the odd snooty response from time to time, but hey, I've been snubbed in European countries as well.

Just because people don't drop and worship you doesn't mean they hate you, you know...

I'm not talking about people not worshipping me. I am talking about people going out of their way to let me know how much they hate me. Which I take as a pretty good indicator that they, in fact, hate me.

But for Danes, it is very pricey to visit the US (even with the lousy dollar value). Heck, it is also pricey to visit France, but we still go.

By coincidence, see my previous post.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

The same travel would cost a Danish family (2 adults, 2 kids) $5,600 for airfare alone.

Stop complaining!

Really, because I found a flight for 3 adults, 2 kids (Our son is 19) for $1200. The trip from Reno to Copenhagen was $1300, the biggest difference was in the cost of the hotel.

Now, I COULD have misread it and the $1200 was per person, but in that case the $1300 flight from here to there would have been per person too. In which case the price difference is magnified further.

 

[CFLarsen]

I'm afraid you rather argue against yourself here. Part of the reason that every Dane owns a passport is because in most of Europe, including Denmark, you need a passport to own a king-sized bed, since you're likely to find yourself in another country if you roll over.

Nope. We don't need a passport to travel to Norway or Sweden, two of our favorite places to go.

Europe covers an area of 10,431,299 km2, larger than the US (9,631,418 km2). Do you think it might be a good idea for you to take a few geography classes?

Okay, I exaggerate slightly. But a relatively short (by US standards) trip of only a few hundred km requires a passport, or did until relatively recently. Can you actually drive 500km in a straight line in Denmark?

Yes. Skagen - Gedser is 551 km. Do you think it might be a good idea for you to take a few geography classes?

If you drove (or flew, more likely) 500km due south from Copenhagen, how many national boundaries would you have crossed?

You can't drive 500 km due south from Copenhagen. Look at a map. Do you think it might be a good idea for you to take a few geography classes?

Notice that I've stopped smiling, because this is not funny anymore.

There are individual states in the continental US where you can drive 500km in a straight line without leaving the state.

Yeah. There are also individual states in the continental Europe where you can drive 500 km in a straight line without leaving the state. So?

Similarly, Danes tend not to be monolingual because the person at the foot of the bed probably doesn't speak Danish. It's not even a day by train from Osnabrueck to Paris, and it passes through three different linguistic communities. I'm not sure where you'd be able to do that same trick in the United States.

From Osnabrück to Paris is 684 km. That will take you less than 7 hours by car.

One result of this is that passports and foreign languages are simply more useful to Danes than they are to Americans.

You want to read up on the Schengen Agreement. Yes, it means you have to learn something that is not about the US. But try anyway. You might find it useful.

Yeah, but correct me I am wrong, but don't Europeans use passports for day to day identification purposes, much the same way we use drivers licenses over here? I have heard that, but I don;t know how much truth there is to it. If its true, though, that would explain much of it. Then there is the size factor. If I needed a passport to visit California, I'd probably ahve one too.

Nope. Some countries have ID cards (France), some have Social Security cards (Denmark, no photo), some have none.

You would know this, if you had geographical knowledge.

I can't speak for anyones interest except my own in the culture, history, etc, of any place. But I can't think of a single fellow American that I personally know who doesn't have some palce abroad that he or she would like to visit some day. I don't know what else to say.

So, go. Nobody is stopping you. There's a whole world out there to be explored. We go. You can, too.

I'm not talking about people not worshipping me. I am talking about people going out of their way to let me know how much they hate me. Which I take as a pretty good indicator that they, in fact, hate me.

That is not what you can expect in Europe.

By coincidence, see my previous post.

And mine!

Really

Really really.

because I found a flight for 3 adults, 2 kids (Our son is 19) for $1200. The trip from Reno to Copenhagen was $1300, the biggest difference was in the cost of the hotel.

Now, I COULD have misread it and the $1200 was per person, but in that case the $1300 flight from here to there would have been per person too. In which case the price difference is magnified further.

Almost $6000 for airfare alone. You have nothing to complain about....

 

[Grammatron]

How many countries does one need to visit?

 

[Nyarlathotep]

That is not what you can expect in Europe.

I can only go by what I see.

Almost $6000 for airfare alone. You have nothing to complain about....

Yeah, and $6500 going the other way. Now add in the extra $40/day that the cheapest hotel room I could find costs in Copenhagen compared to the cheapest I could find in Reno. Plus food and whatever other expenses the trip would entail, plus the fact that the Euro has a better exchange rate than the dollar. Throw all of that together and it doesn't seem surprising that you guys come here more often than we go there.

 

[Jas]

Exchange rates and business travel make a huge difference. If you're coming from UK, North America is cheap. A friend of mine who lives in the UK buys all of her makeup, etc, when she comes home for Christmas, because when you take everything into account, it costs her about a third of what it would over there.

Speaking to another UK friend's coworker once, turns out she flies to NYC once a year just to go shopping for her wardrobe. It's the same for her to fly over, stay in a hotel, and go shopping in NYC, than it is just to go shopping in London. And she gets a vacation out of it.

Anything I buy in the UK costs at least x2.5 what I would pay at home. A pair of boots that are $100 here, are 100 pounds in the UK. Even when you take into account VAT, it's still double. I'm lucky in that I can usually couchsurf in London, but accomodation is much more expensive there.

Even when you look at 'cheaper' European countries, they tend to be either more expensive to get to (as soon as you're flying anywhere other than London, Amsterdam, or Munich, the cost increases exponentially, in general), or a complete pain in the *ss to get to. Often it's both.

And companies, in my experience, are much more likely to send people from Europe to North America, rather than vice versa, because it's cheaper. Not to mention, their European employees are likely to know English.

The other issue is ease of transport. In Europe, to get to another country, you can fly, drive, or take the train (from downtown, even! I can get from London to Paris in three hours, from Victoria station to Gare Nord.) To get to another country from the States your options are much more limited.

In terms of language, why would I bother to learn German, Japanese, Swedish, etc? Those are all sellers, they'll learn my language. And they aren't anywhere near me. About the only languages that one could consider generally useful for Americans to learn would be Spanish (NAFTA, etc), and maybe Mandarin.

 

[Jas]

I'm not talking about people not worshipping me. I am talking about people going out of their way to let me know how much they hate me. Which I take as a pretty good indicator that they, in fact, hate me.

A lot of people in a lot of countries go out of their way to show how much they hate Americans. It can be pretty nasty in Europe. I met quite a few while backpacking that would have Canadian flags on their packs, so people would treat them better.

We've had several incidents here where cars with American license plates are vandalized (usually with antiAmerican, antiBush sentiments.)

 

[CFLarsen]

A lot of people in a lot of countries go out of their way to show how much they hate Americans. It can be pretty nasty in Europe. I met quite a few while backpacking that would have Canadian flags on their packs, so people would treat them better.

We've had several incidents here where cars with American license plates are vandalized (usually with antiAmerican, antiBush sentiments.)

Prove that there are "a lot of people in a lot of countries" that "go out of their way to show how much they hate Americans" and that it "can be pretty nasty in Europe".

Yes, verifiable evidence.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

A lot of people in a lot of countries go out of their way to show how much they hate Americans. It can be pretty nasty in Europe. I met quite a few while backpacking that would have Canadian flags on their packs, so people would treat them better.

We've had several incidents here where cars with American license plates are vandalized (usually with antiAmerican, antiBush sentiments.)

And that's the kind of thing I am talking about. Why would I want to spend big money visiting another country, when people are going to vandalize my car for no better reason than that I am an American? Lemmesee, I can spend $10,000 visiting Europe and being held personally responsible for whatever wrongs the locals feel my country has done and generally being treated like dirt because of my nationality OR I can spend $2000 and take my kids to Disneyland andbe just another face in the crowd. Tough decision, that.....

 

[drkitten]

Nope. We don't need a passport to travel to Norway or Sweden, two of our favorite places to go.

Europe covers an area of 10,431,299 km2, larger than the US (9,631,418 km2).

And how much of that area could a Dane reach, without a passport, ten years ago?

Europe is huge. It's a continent. European countries, by the standards of the Western Hemisphere, are tiny, which is why prior to the establishment of document-free travel as part of the development of the EU, passports were essential for Europeans in a way that they weren't for Americans.

You can't drive 500 km due south from Copenhagen.

Which is why I suggested that you might want to fly, instead. Taking some reading classes might help you as well.

Although you can actually drive 500km due south from Copenhagen. You just need a rather specialized vehicle (and a hell of a lot of fuel), but these vehicles are fairly widely available on the military surplus market (and used a lot in various parts of the tourism trade).

From Osnabrück to Paris is 684 km. That will take you less than 7 hours by car.

Depends on how you drive and how bad the Low Countries traffic is. You've missed the point that nowhere in the United States do you have three large-sized distinct linguistic communities with a 700km drive of each other. The only place you'd find anything remotely like that would be on some of the larger Indian reservations, where English is more commonly spoken than the various tribal languages in the first place.

You want to read up on the Schengen Agreement.

Do you mean the 1985 agreement on document-free travel to which Denmark wasn't a part, or do you mean the 1990 convention that ratified it EU-wide? And if you're discussing the possbility of document-free travel as a practical matter, the dates of interest are probably either 1995, when it officially came into effect, or '99, when it was officially incorporated into EU law, since you would still have needed a passport for much of Europe even that late. And since we're discussing Denmark in particular -- Denmark didn't actual implement the Schengen Agreement until late '96.

So, basically, it's been less than ten years that Danes have been able to enjoy document-free travel throughout a fairly substantial minory of the European continent. But don't let that stop you from ranting about how little Danes have needed passports....

 

[Jas]

From Osnabrück to Paris is 684 km. That will take you less than 7 hours by car.

How many countries can you travel to, from the US, within seven hours, by car? How many of them are non-english speaking?

Here's a fun little tool:
http://www.suncam.tv/driving-distances-usa-citys.html

3290 km from NY to New Mexico
2193 km from Maryland to Texas
822 km from San Diego to San Franciso - and that's not even leaving California!

Where I am, I can drive 20 hours north, and still be hours away from leaving my province.