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Does SCOTUS deserve its exalted status?

The basic idea of the constitution as a proscription of more than it needs to and a bill of rights doesn't work. The UK doesn't have either. The Constitution should be a minimalist document that creates a Parliament or Congress. Those bodies then create the laws. If people don't like them they will vote for them other team.
That is basically illiberal democracy. Two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner, or the tyranny of the proletariat, masses.....whatever, still tyranny.

It wouldn't matter so much that Wyoming has more presentation at the federal level if we hadn't pushed all the things up to the federal level. Let Wyomingans make the rules for Wyoming and Californians make the rules for California. Much like Italians make most of the rules for Italy. Or Bavarians get to be in charge of Bavaria and not Prussians. From what I can tell, American progressives only seem to think federalism is a bad idea when it comes to the US.

That being said, about third on my list of amendments would be making amendments easier. Not easy, just easier.

There are also several fixes for the imbalance of power between states too. Increase the number of Representatives by a lot, cap the number of citizens a rep can represent. Break up the 4 or 5 biggest states.

One wonders what mechanism would be useful for declaring reproductive rights as something the state can't regulate with significant checks on the majority. I do believe that Roe V Wade pretty clearly distorted American politics for two or three generations. The christian right wasn't a thing really until roe v wade. The right protestants thought the pope was the anti-christ, some still do but they've been willing to make common cause on account of Roe V Wade. Folks like to compare us to Europe and ask why abortion isn't an issue there, well, mostly because they came to a democratic consensus on abortion in the 60s and 70s. Most European countries have a lot of restrictions on abortion. Age limits tend to be between 16 and 26 weeks. Often there's a requirement that one or mor doctors say it's necessary. Those are restrictions that lots of American progressive think would be terrrible. You are correct in saying that Roe V Wade was wrongly decided though. It assumes that a right must be implied in the constitution for it to exist, clearly contrary to bo the 9th and 10th amendments.

So, no the SCOTUS isn't perfect but I think it beats the alternative, Trump being able to do whatever the hell he wants for four years.

And then there's originalism/textualism. What's the alternative?
 
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For a British subject, this is mostly non-comprehensible. This is my problem since this is a site referencing US law. I'll go off and try and work out what you are saying.
There are likely a number of things about our system that are not comprehensible to outsiders, often they aren't comprehensible to insiders.

Did you know that the primaries are a government election to choose the parties representative in the actual election. This is a thing that as far as I know doesn't exist in any other country. One of the biggest flaws in the current American system is an excess of democracy not a deficit of democracy. The UK came close when Jeremy Corbin was made leader of labor, they opened their selection process to anyone who could pay a nominal fee. The US parties don't even have that much control. When we register to vote we choose a party or not and the parties have no say over whether I'm in their club.
 
And then there's originalism/textualism. What's the alternative?
Legal realism as opposed to legal formalism. The idea that law isn't an abstraction. That the law exists within a real world context. That law shouldn't be a proxy for trial by combat where those with better resources can destroy those with less. That the past does not have the answers.

Originialism is a way to market opinion as received truth. That's all it is. It is a device to avoid having to demonstrate why one's opinion will have a positive effect consistent with the purpose served by the rule of law. Also to avoid taking moral responsibility for one's opinion.

Textualism is at it's core a lie. Sure, there are some basic examples where a text is clear in application, but those cases aren't the issue. Legal analysis exists in the gray area and those gray areas exist because the world is too complicated for anyone, much less a legislature to foresee everything. Textualism is juvenile. It appeals to the same sort of mindset that thinks everyone else is stupid and hates the idea of expertise. People who honestly think they could rule the world.

Textualists also way to often become not textualists when it suits their principles.

The thing about a more dynamic approach that when confronted with a gray area or absurdity it addresses the practical results and decides a case based on what serves the polity best. As such it never needs to be abandoned for political expediency. It likewise gives nothing to hide behind when reaching an unpopular result. For good or ill. Sometimes unpopular is correct.

The only difference between this and a textualist approach is that the textualists are lying about what they are doing.
 
Legal realism as opposed to legal formalism. The idea that law isn't an abstraction. That the law exists within a real world context. That law shouldn't be a proxy for trial by combat where those with better resources can destroy those with less. That the past does not have the answers.

Originialism is a way to market opinion as received truth. That's all it is. It is a device to avoid having to demonstrate why one's opinion will have a positive effect consistent with the purpose served by the rule of law. Also to avoid taking moral responsibility for one's opinion.

Textualism is at it's core a lie. Sure, there are some basic examples where a text is clear in application, but those cases aren't the issue. Legal analysis exists in the gray area and those gray areas exist because the world is too complicated for anyone, much less a legislature to foresee everything. Textualism is juvenile. It appeals to the same sort of mindset that thinks everyone else is stupid and hates the idea of expertise. People who honestly think they could rule the world.

Textualists also way to often become not textualists when it suits their principles.

The thing about a more dynamic approach that when confronted with a gray area or absurdity it addresses the practical results and decides a case based on what serves the polity best. As such it never needs to be abandoned for political expediency. It likewise gives nothing to hide behind when reaching an unpopular result. For good or ill. Sometimes unpopular is correct.

The only difference between this and a textualist approach is that the textualists are lying about what they are doing.
How is your legal realism any different from originalism or textualism as you seem to think of them then? Its like my opinion man, except they judge openly admits it? Judges as legislators, but they admit it? At least originalism and textualism provide a standard by which you can judge the judge.
 
How is your legal realism any different from originalism or textualism as you seem to think of them then? Its like my opinion man, except they judge openly admits it? Judges as legislators, but they admit it? At least originalism and textualism provide a standard by which you can judge the judge.
And then people complain that the US supreme court has an exalted status!
 
And then people complain that the US supreme court has an exalted status!
There is an odd, we think they are too powerful and unaccountable but the preferred jurisprudence is that they would be less accountable and less restrained.
 
Ken White throws some shade on their opinions. They are just creating some words to justify what they already decided.
So, they're human?

ETA, also not really a criticism of originalism or textualism, just saying they are on occasional hypocrites. The alterative seems to be, no standard at all, the law is what they want it to be.
 
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The basic idea of the constitution as a proscription of more than it needs to and a bill of rights doesn't work. The UK doesn't have either. The Constitution should be a minimalist document that creates a Parliament or Congress. Those bodies then create the laws. If people don't like them they will vote for them other team.
I should have added the UK has a bill of rights passed in 1689.
Largely based on the ideas of political theorist John Locke, the Bill sets out a constitutional requirement for the Crown to seek the consent of the people as represented in Parliament. As well as setting limits on the powers of the monarch, it established the rights of Parliament, including regular parliaments, free elections, and parliamentary privilege. It also listed individual rights, including the prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment and the right not to pay taxes levied without the approval of Parliament.
There is the Human Rights Act which incorporates into UK law the European Convention on Human Rights.

The constitution is largely written just not in one place.
The UK is often said to have an ‘unwritten’ constitution, but this is not strictly correct; it is largely written, but in different documents. It has never been codified; brought together in a single document. In this respect, the UK is different from most other countries, which have codified constitutions. But not all: New Zealand and Israel also lack a codified constitution.

Codified constitutions are typically produced following a major historic turning point, such as the grant of independence, revolution, defeat in war, or complete collapse of the previous system of government. None of these things have happened to the UK, which is why it has never had cause to codify its constitution. (Our one revolution, in the 17th century, did briefly produce a codified constitution: Cromwell’s Instrument of Government).

The main difference from the US is that the UK constitution is a set of laws and can be modified (and has been) by increments over time. Occasionally referenda have been used, but they are not necessary.
 
I found Jonathan Gienapp's book Against Constitutional Originalism to be highly informative not only on the U.S. Constitution but constitutions and constitutionalism in general. To be sure, Originalism and Textualism are not the same thing, but the foundational principles in the book apply to both.

Gienapp points out that the court's supermajority predicates its view of the Constitution on three premises: Writtenness, Fixity, and Law. The U.S. Constitution is written down in one place, as opposed to constitutions that existed at the time. As such there is a clear boundary to what is and isn't the constitution. As a consequence of that, its meaning is fixed. Textualists argue that it is fixed in the words on the page. Originalism argues that it is fixed in the original common understanding of those terms in the time and place wherefrom it arose. So, for example, "domestic violence" meant something wholly different to the Founders than it does to us today. And finally, the Constitution is a Law, to be treated and interpreted as such.

Gienapp dismantles the Writtenness and Fixity arguments by appealing to the larger science of constitutionalism, which I will not reproduce here as he is far smarter than I about it.

He dismantles the Law argument by noting that constitutions were not previously considered law per se, which is perhaps why Jefferson looked askance at the legal rationale for judicial review. As reasoned in Marbury v. Madison, it is a court's prerogative to say what the law is, but more importantly to say what the law is when it seems more than one law applies. Indeed even in the 1700s, court cases were decided by a battle of precedents. (I have some wonderful "reporters" from that era.) The Marbury court reasoned that the constitution was it's own thing (sui generis, in legalese), but rather simply the nation's highest law. And as such, the law of the constitution superseded laws from Congress (in this case the Judiciary Act of 1789 which erroneously gave original jurisdiction on some questions to the Supreme Court, meaning that Marbury's action was not properly before the court and should be dismissed).

Gienapp points out that the Constitution is not written in legalese, as would be expected from a legislature, but in the common language of the people. As the Federalists point out, this was on purpose. But the modern principle of the Constitution-as-Law invokes the prospect that only lawyers and judges (i.e., courts) can properly interpret it, and only they have the prerogative to do so. What the people think the Constitution meant or should mean is tossed completely out the window. Statutes are meant to be closely parsed by courts. Constitutions are not. But much of the Supreme Court's lofy opinion of itself is predicated on them nine being the only people on Earth who can "properly" determine what it means, and if you disagree then you are just an unwashed layperson.
 
How is your legal realism any different from originalism or textualism as you seem to think of them then? Its like my opinion man, except they judge openly admits it? Judges as legislators, but they admit it? At least originalism and textualism provide a standard by which you can judge the judge.
No it doesn't. That standard is a made up self-serving fiction. They are making policy in these situations and making an appeal to a false authority that they themselves are creating by selectively referencing historical records, usually from a time where the problem at hand would be totally incomprehensible to the people they reference.

The cold reality is that when a judge decides an issue of first impression they are by definition making a policy decision. Not a legal one. Not to say they can do whatever they want. This policy decision needs to be consistent within existing legal framework unless the issue at hand justifies abandoning some of that framework. It presents an issue that exposes past legal analysis as faulty. That sort of thing. Or the decision has shown to have a significantly negative effect towards the quality of the legal system.

Formalists are obsessed with the idea that law is a form of mathematics and there already in the law exists a solution and whether that serves the purpose of law in the real world isn't all that relevant. They claim they aren't making policy and just calling balls and strikes or whatever. If it means that innocent people need to die because of finality, well, thems the breaks even if it should shock any person with a shred of humanity. In reality they want that result because they think finality is more important than the life of the little people. Since saying that would draw a storm of criticism they shake their heads sadly and say the result is forced. When they are the ones forcing that result.

Most of them believe their own BS. Which in law is an occupational hazard. They get told Scalia was clever even if they disagree with his decisions. Lawyers also really like to avoid the idea that they have much moral responsibility about anything as long as they act within their own ethical framework. The legal community doesn't want to get into morality because it makes it harder to create billables if they have to consider the harm done. Filing frivolous defamation lawsuits to shut up critics of the wealthy and powerful because the critics can't afford a defense. That sort of thing.

A realist is honest that policy is being made and that policy has real practical effect and the best decision is not a matter of abstract reasoning but rather the one that furthers the purpose of the laws at issue and the rule of law as a whole.

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A perhaps overly simple example is a city having a law making it illegal to drive a vehicle into a park. No exceptions listed in the statute, just a simple prohibition.

Someone then has a medical emergency in the park. An ambulance is called and that ambulance enters the park.

Did that ambulance violate the law?

The plain text says yes. Maybe the executive will decline to prosecute. Maybe not.

A realist would recognize that the prohibition was generally written and obviously not for the purpose of preventing an emergency vehicle from entering the park to address an emergency. This is not an illegal act.
 
The notion of warping the Commerce Clause to cover legislative overreach will make more sense to our colleagues across the pond when we point out that Congress is not just another word for Parliament. In the Westminster System, a foundational doctrine is the sovereignty of Parliament. And this is why Parliament can effectively change the U.K. Constitution with a majority vote. Parliament can legislate on any matter it deems of national importance.

In contrast, Congress has enumerated powers. This was meant to be in keeping with the original notion of the United States as a loose federation of sovereign states, each of which would retain its general police power and in whose several governments the majority of legislative power would repose. Congress' authority is limited to certain specific areas of government activity and commercial regulation, the latter being limited to commerce between the states.

The hall-of-shame case is Gonzales v. Raich. Mr. Gonzales, a resident of California, sought to grow, harvest, and consume cannabis solely by himself and for his own use. His operation took place entirely within the California Republic and was fully compliant with that state's laws for personal use of cannabis. The Supreme Court nevertheless ruled that federal laws outlawing the production and use of cannabis superseded, on an argument reaching to the Commerce Clause even when no interstate commerce was involved in the case. The prevailing argument was that it somehow contributed to the larger "drug market," and therefore Gonzales could be prosecuted under federal law.
 
So still, what's the difference between originals, textualism, and what you think they should do. Which seems like the same thing just without any rationalization other than, because we think it ought to be this way.

I think you will find all sorts of legal types that strongly disagree with the notion that judges are necessarily making policy decisions.

@JayUtah, obviously, I'm unconvinced. Especially the basis of originalism and textualism being based on the Constitution being law or not. A. No reason laws have to written in legalese but even if they do the constitution would be more about the law regarding the making of laws. Its clearly the rule book by which the government in the US is meant to operate.

I'm still struck that the alternatives really seem to be exactly what critics of originalism and textualism say they are, which is rationalization for pre-existing desired outcomes. Except with out even a rationalization.
 
A realist would recognize that the prohibition was generally written and obviously not for the purpose of preventing an emergency vehicle from entering the park to address an emergency. This is not an illegal act.
The better choice would be to amend that law to make it clear it does not apply to emergency response vehicles responding to emergencies. Otherwise, who else is exempt from the laws? The mayor, cops having the department BBQ?
 
The better choice would be to amend that law to make it clear it does not apply to emergency response vehicles responding to emergencies. Otherwise, who else is exempt from the laws? The mayor, cops having the department BBQ?

Too late for amendment. Has the ambulance driver committed a crime? What if it has a mandatory 24hr jail sentence?


As to the latter part, well, whatever. If the cops wish to argue that the intent of the statute was not to prevent them from having a BBQ they are welcome to make fools of themselves. Just because someone wants to make a stupid argument doesn't mean a court has to accept it. Of course, that assumes they arrest themselves and that sort of corruption is a whole different story.

A town wants to make a general law prohibiting people driving through the park. It is asinine to think this law is intended to stop an ambulance. Yet here we are with textualism leading to that asinine result and casting blame elsewhere.
 
Its more asinine to have laws that don't actually mean what they say, that you have to read between the lines to figure out. Granted, that's not uncommon.

ETA: So outside of originalism or textualism what is the limiting principle on what a judge could or should rule. It just seems to be what the judge thinks the law or constitution ought to be. Which may well be true of originalist judges, if it is, then why complain about originalism, it's just pragmatism in the name of results you don't like. Which, ok but its not the method of analysis that is the problem, it's the outcomes.
 
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No it doesn't. That standard is a made up self-serving fiction. They are making policy in these situations and making an appeal to a false authority that they themselves are creating by selectively referencing historical records, usually from a time where the problem at hand would be totally incomprehensible to the people they reference.
I agree the Originalist approach is just cherry-picking history to arrive at the predetermined conclusion. Judges are famously not historians, except when they say they are in order to enact a policy preference. In some cases this has led to some comical references to medieval-era legal thinking as a pretext to support a desired reading of the law on the basis of "ancient tradition."

Formalists are obsessed with the idea that law is a form of mathematics and there already in the law exists a solution and whether that serves the purpose of law in the real world isn't all that relevant. They claim they aren't making policy and just calling balls and strikes or whatever. If it means that innocent people need to die because of finality, well, thems the breaks even if it should shock any person with a shred of humanity.
This is most what I mean when I criticize the Supreme Court for some of its members having spent too long in the rarified atmosphere of appellate jurisdiction. And that's really what Justice Sotomayor was criticizing Justice Kavanaugh about that led to her apology. She accused Kavanaugh of having lived his entire life in privilege and thus being completely ignorant of the real-world application of court decisions to real people. Most of us live much more precarious lives than federal justices.

I heard from a law student that a professor had said in class that your legal analysis is wrong if it gives the wrong answer. That is, if you analyze a law in a way that produces a patently unacceptable result, then you need to fix your analysis. This is an appeal to Consequentialism, which is another way of saying legal realism. Justice Thomas goes to absurd lengths in his opinion in Garland v. Cargill to point out in excruciating (and largely irrelevant) mechanical detail—I'm an engineer by profession—how differently a gun operates under a bump stock than normally, and thus how the existing statutes and rules cannot finely apply. Maybe the right answer would have been that a law that forbids ordinary people from owning machine guns prevents them from buying something that turns their gun into a machine gun because the law is predicated on the presumption that machine guns are not something ordinary people should have because—you know—consequences.

In reality they want that result because they think finality is more important than the life of the little people. Since saying that would draw a storm of criticism they shake their heads sadly and say the result is forced. When they are the ones forcing that result.

Most of them believe their own BS. Which in law is an occupational hazard. They get told Scalia was clever even if they disagree with his decisions. Lawyers also really like to avoid the idea that they have much moral responsibility about anything as long as they act within their own ethical framework. The legal community doesn't want to get into morality because it makes it harder to create billables if they have to consider the harm done.
And this leads to what so many practitioners I know refer to as "Lawyer Brain." It's so easy, so comfortable, and frankly so fun to descend into the legalistic minutia of a case irrespective of its moral import. My spouse being an overworked, underpaid public defender exposes me to some of this. Criminal defenders need to develop emotional calluses and as such come across as distinterested in the consequences of the outcome.

Related to this is Institutionalism, in which courts may rule the way that preserves the perception of their authority, majesty, and infallibility but perhaps at the expense of an individual. This is not necessarily a bad thing in general. We want courts to be respected because that's where a lot of their authority derives. And the respect due the court is directly determined by how respectfully the court acts. But when a court, say, refuses to grant a defendant a new trial after some substantial irregularity in order to preserve the illusion of infallibility, this is a problem. In the D.C. Circuit we have poor Judge Boasberg trying to combat obvious contempt while his superiors tell him he can't do that.

So still, what's the difference between originals, textualism, and what you think they should do. Which seems like the same thing just without any rationalization other than, because we think it ought to be this way.
As @Suddenly points out, the difference is in the honesty of the approach. Originalists say their hands are tied because the original public meaning of some law is objectively what should govern their decision. This is usually not true, as the historical meaning can be easily cherry-picked, and the original public may have had no concept of the problem now before the court. Textualists say their hands are tied because the plain meaning of the text is all that its original enactors meant to leave to us. But again this is usually not true. These modes of interpretation inherently deny that any interpretation is taking place. As Suddenly puts it, they pretend this is some cold, impartial calculus that invariably gives the same answer every time.

In contrast, a Consequentialist approach looks at the meaning of the law as it would apply today to avoid a clearly undesirable or intolerable consequence, such as denying a convict the right to present new evidence of his factual innocence. A Purposivist approach would project the spirit of the law onto the facts to take a common-sense approach. As in the ambulance example, a Purposivist approach would recognize the textual deficiency in the statute and agree that the law probably did not mean to restrict emergency vehicles responding to an exigent circumstance.

These modes of interpretation importantly do not deny that they apply the court's discretion and judgment. They acknowledge that while they believe one interpretation to be what should prevail, reasonable minds can differ—and may in fact differ if judgment is reversed. In my mind this stands in stark contrasts to interpretational schemes that pretend no interpretation or discretion is happening.

The better choice would be to amend that law to make it clear it does not apply to emergency response vehicles responding to emergencies. Otherwise, who else is exempt from the laws? The mayor, cops having the department BBQ?
It was admittedly a toy example, but the shortcomings of legislative foresight are exactly the bread-and-butter of trial lawyers. The existence of a legislative solution to a problem before the court does not absolve the court from ruling on it then and there, based on existing facts and existing law. A formalist or textualist approach would require holding the ambulance driver criminally liable.

Copyright law serves as a good example here. Of course copyright grants to the holder many exclusive rights intended to allow him to profit from the covered labor. A composer who labors long months to write a symphony should have the right to receive payment for his labor by preventing others from easily copying it for free, and to perform it publicly and charge money for people to come hear it. But courts realized long ago that a narrow interpretation of these rights went against the broader public purpose. Intellectual-property laws are meant to stimulate the product of intellectual property as a public good. Some uses of covered property without permission actually served that purpose, such as allowing reviewers to quote portions in their reviews and allowing teachers to use them as non-profiteering examples to students.

All this existed as common law (i.e., judge-created policy) for two centuries before Congress enacted the common understanding of Fair Use into Title 17 of the United States Code.

I think you will find all sorts of legal types that strongly disagree with the notion that judges are necessarily making policy decisions.
I haven't found any, and I hob-nob with a lot of lawyers. Law is simply the expression of politics and that extends to the court's application of law to facts. The notion that judges can create policy within the framework of existing laws is a bedrock principle of jurisprudence. This is diluted by the fact that the overwhelmingly vast number of cases brought at the trial level present no remarkable question of fact or law. As such they are disposed of in a straightforward fashion. But when a novel question of law arises, judges must make a policy decision.

The presumption that judges enact policy is baked into the Constitution, and in many state constitutions. The authority of the executive to appoint judges presumes that the choice will include policy preferences. The requirement for Senate confirmation is meant to check the executive's power to pack courts.


It's slightly facile to point to hypothetical cases in which legislatures obviously fail to cover all the bases. As a landlord I'm bound by requirements to perform certain actions within time limits specified in days. And there have been some deficiencies from time to time in whether that means business days or calendar days. Thankfully most of the laws and regulations are patched up, but such things will always exist in legislative product. Similarly you will have conflicting laws or rules that must be deconflicted. Bodies of law are gigantic, and even the most conscientious legislatures cannot fully reconcile their new work with all existing work. Yes, its nice when legislatures are amenable to fixing such mistakes.

But it's facile because legislatures simply cannot foresee all applications of their desired policy to all potential sets of facts, nor is it useful for them to do so. In these cases we rely upon common law. We absolutely need a judge to make a policy decision that holds for those specific facts under those specific laws. They don't hold for other facts, such that a legislature would need to act in the general case. But in that specific case (and any subsequent ones that are deemed sufficiently similar) that policy holds. There's no theoretically perfect legislature or theoretically divine language that can obviate the need for a court to make a policy decision on some unique set of facts.

No reason laws have to written in legalese but even if they do the constitution would be more about the law regarding the making of laws. Its clearly the rule book by which the government in the US is meant to operate.
Laws must be written in legalese (or at least in precise terms) because they must unambiguously invoke, via well-known terms of art, concepts that will apply very finely to potential actions. Potential lawbreakers (or their lawyers) must be adequately put on notice what exact actions are lawful and which are not.

Constitutions not so much. I don't disgree with your analogy to the rule book. In fact, this is why our Bill of Rights was tacked on. The body of the Constitution is the principles by which government operates, in part to protect rights. The Bill of Rights enumerates some of the rights to be protected. In the authors' minds, these were very different kinds of things.

But the argument now is that the Constitution is being so finely parsed and so disingenuously applied that it seems to have fallen away from its original purpose. The notion that only lawyers and courts can properly understand and apply the One True Meaning of the Constitution is not likely a principle the Founders would have recognized. We have a plethora of 4th Amendment jurisprudence that argues endlessly and in great detail over what constitutes a "search" within the meaning of the amendment. Most of us would take a much more practical approach: "Are ya looking for something? If so, then it's a search." This is more likely what the Founders intended people to understand by the 4th Amendment.

I'm still struck that the alternatives really seem to be exactly what critics of originalism and textualism say they are, which is rationalization for pre-existing desired outcomes. Except with out even a rationalization.
The argument is that the modes of interpretation that are postured as avoiding predetermined outcomes clearly fail to avoid it, and employ their assurances only to render the reasoning allegedly impervious to criticism. The argument is further that these allegedly dispassionate "mathematical" modes are frankly abandoned wholesale when they would produce the answer unfavorable to the majority's policy preferences. The majority applies Purposivism when it suits them (Bruen) and Consequentialism when it suits them (Trump v. Anderson).
 

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