Ed Israel/US Attacks Iran /Yet Another Country/Iran

[Ziggurat]

you, like Trump, think that Countries are just companies run and owned by their nominal leaders

In absolute dictatorships, they kind of are.

But Khamenei got absolutely everything he could have ever wanted from Trump: being made a Martyr when it very much looked only recently that he would become a deposed tyrant.

I don't think what's happening to Iran right now is actually what he wanted.

 

[EvilBiker]

Found this pretty on point....

 

[The Great Zaganza]

In absolute dictatorships, they kind of are.

Wrong. Even in dictatorships, the ruler is very much constraint. And this leader has been in charge pretty much forever.

I don't think what's happening to Iran right now is actually what he wanted.

Maybe, maybe not.
The wholesale slaughter of Palestinians has achieved more in public opinion for the Palestinian Cause than decades of resistance and protests.
If Iran manages to outlast the US, it will fundamentally shift power in the region to it.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Ironically, what Khamenei will probably be most negatively remembered for is not aggressively developing a nuclear weapon and set up a credible deterrent.

 

[theprestige]

But Khamenei got absolutely everything he could have ever wanted from Trump: being made a Martyr when it very much looked only recently that he would become a deposed tyrant.

"Absolutely all I want from the US government is to be made a martyr", said no tyrant ever.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Foreign war distracts from troubles at home. Fund it with punitive war reparations. Pick a victim, blow them to smithereens and then send them the bill.

Cuba, you're next. Just as soon as the Iranian regime, which it fighting for its very existence, gives up and stops shooting back. Two weeks. Almost certainly. You'll begin to see...

Taiwan are probably growing apprehensive as well.

 

[jimbob]

"Absolutely all I want from the US government is to be made a martyr", said no tyrant ever.

Most tyrants are not terminally ill religious fundamentalist octogenarians

 

[Ziggurat]

The wholesale slaughter of Palestinians has achieved more in public opinion for the Palestinian Cause than decades of resistance and protests.

Then why were the mullahs engaged in wholesale slaughter of their own people? And why are they attacking all their neighbors, even the ones that previously supported them?

If Iran manages to outlast the US, it will fundamentally shift power in the region to it.

Power is undoubtedly shifting. Are you under the impression that Iran could come out of this more powerful? Despite losing most of the tools they have to exert that power? That seems... unlikely. Unless you think they can build back more than they've lost (seems a tall order), I don't know how you figure that's going to happen.

 

[Ziggurat]

Ironically, what Khamenei will probably be most negatively remembered for is not aggressively developing a nuclear weapon and set up a credible deterrent.

Remembered for by whom?

By Iranians, he will probably be remembered as an oppressive tyrant who slaughtered his own people and led the country into fruitless wars.

 

[Ziggurat]

Wrong. Even in dictatorships, the ruler is very much constraint.

I've seen that video before. One of the main points it makes is that dictators have to pay their underlings to stay in power.

Which makes the ability of the regime to actually pay its soldiers rather important. If there's no wealth to spread to those supporters, then the support base collapses. Planigale explicitly argued against this, claiming that they would fight on for religious reasons. I'm not sure you took that position explicitly, but you didn't seem to think that the inability to pay the IRGC would be a big deal. But your own source makes clear that it very much would be.

 

[Planigale]

Then why were the mullahs engaged in wholesale slaughter of their own people? And why are they attacking all their neighbors, even the ones that previously supported them?

Power is undoubtedly shifting. Are you under the impression that Iran could come out of this more powerful? Despite losing most of the tools they have to exert that power? That seems... unlikely. Unless you think they can build back more than they've lost (seems a tall order), I don't know how you figure that's going to happen.

I think people here do not know what a mullah is. Mullah is a title for a member of the Islamic clergy, like reverend, or father. It is not a particularly senior position there will be over a 100.000 mullahs in Iran. The Islamic nature of governance in Iran means that mullahs have to advise on the Islamic nature of policy, just like in the USSR there were commissars who ensured ideological purity, but wren't in command positions. Although the Armed forces will have mullahs attached to them, they won't be in command. It is well documented that the armed forces wanted to develop chemical weapons during the Iran Iraq war and later wanted to develop nuclear weapons. For all that people here disparage them, the theocracy opposed both as un-Islamic. The mullahs aren't a hierarchy in the same way as e.g. the catholic church. A better analogy is with judges, the rulings of more senior judges are respected, but they aren't the bosses of the junior judges. Essentially there are three arms of government in Iran, the security services, the civilian government and the clergy, the nearest analogy to the clergy is the judiciary, they will provide the judges, and the legal advice as to what policy is halal.

Ayatollahs are the more senior clerics to mullahs there may be hundreds of Ayatollahs in Iran most will be judges.

List of ayatollahs - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Planigale]

I've seen that video before. One of the main points it makes is that dictators have to pay their underlings to stay in power.

Which makes the ability of the regime to actually pay its soldiers rather important. If there's no wealth to spread to those supporters, then the support base collapses. Planigale explicitly argued against this, claiming that they would fight on for religious reasons. I'm not sure you took that position explicitly, but you didn't seem to think that the inability to pay the IRGC would be a big deal. But your own source makes clear that it very much would be.

If you think that the only reason people fight is for money then you are wrong. How much were those who fought in the US revolutionary war paid? How much those resistance fighters in WW2? Did the marines only storm the beaches of Iwo Jima once they had been paid? have you heard of the crusades?

 

[Dr.Sid]

If you think that the only reason people fight is for money then you are wrong. How much were those who fought in the US revolutionary war paid? How much those resistance fighters in WW2? Did the marines only storm the beaches of Iwo Jima once they had been paid? have you heard of the crusades?

Most people in WW2 were drafted under penalty of death. Some of them might have been enthusiastic about being there, I'm quite sure many of them were not.

 

[Planigale]

Most people in WW2 were drafted under penalty of death. Some of them might have been enthusiastic about being there, I'm quite sure many of them were not.

So not for the pay? You have just made my point for me, not everyone fights for the money. Thank you.

I hadn't realised that the US didn't have a conscientious objection exception, even in Britain which had an existential issue unlike the US refusal to serve was at most a prison sentence.

 

[Ziggurat]

If you think that the only reason people fight is for money then you are wrong.

Again, I never said that. I rather explicitly said that it's not the only reason. That doesn't mean that they can keep fighting without money. Some people can, sure, but a lot of people cannot.

 

[Ziggurat]

Most people in WW2 were drafted under penalty of death. Some of them might have been enthusiastic about being there, I'm quite sure many of them were not.

They were still paid. Do you really imagine that the army could have functioned well if they weren't?

 

[dudalb]

Most people in WW2 were drafted under penalty of death. Some of them might have been enthusiastic about being there, I'm quite sure many of them were not.

Depends on which country you were in. In the US and the UK, defhing the draft would get you a prison sentence,no worse.

 

[dirtywick]

the threat of imprisonment probably didn't lighten the mood much

 

[Andy_Ross]

Burgum: What we might consider our traditional allies from Europe have been less than reliable. The closer they are to Russia, the more aligned they are with President Trump.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2035074908406129137

 

[Andy_Ross]

Donald getting ready to cut and run. Let someone else sort out the mess.
US aren't going to open the Straits or do anything about securing the enriched Uranium it seems.

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
We are getting very close to meeting our objectives as we consider winding down our great Military efforts in the Middle East with respect to the Terrorist Regime of Iran:
(1) Completely degrading Iranian Missile Capability, Launchers, and everything else pertaining to them.
(2) Destroying Iran's Defense Industrial Base.
(3) Eliminating their Navy and Air Force, including Anti Aircraft Weaponry.
(4) Never allowing Iran to get even close to Nuclear Capability, and always being in a position where the U.S.A. can quickly and powerfully react to such a situation, should it take place.
(5) Protecting, at the highest level, our Middle Eastern Allies, including Israel, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Kuwait, and others.
The Hormuz Strait will have to be guarded and policed, as necessary, by other Nations who use it - The United States does not! If asked, we will help these Countries in their Hormuz efforts, but it shouldn't be necessary once Iran's threat is eradicated.
Importantly, it will be an easy Military Operation for them.
Thank you for your attention to this matter!

President DONALD J. TRUMP