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Ed Israel/US Attacks Iran /Yet Another Country/Iran

Steve said:
I'm betting European governments already know that and have included it in their decisions. Some European governments appear to have principles that the USA government is devoid of.
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I don't think principles need to come into this. Simple self interest. Except that if Trump hadn't trashed US soft power, the European government's might have felt more pressure to support any hypothetical mine clearing operation.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
About as smart as the US's decision to abandon renewables will look in a generation. Pun noted.
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We haven't abandoned renewables. We're not adopting them as fast as Europe (which is very different from abandoning something you already built, which Germany did with nuclear), but that's not working out real well for Europe either. Much of Europe has electricity costs twice as high as ours.

And if the claims of renewables advocates are to be believed (which they shouldn't be because it never works out that well), renewables technology is advancing rapidly so it actually makes sense to hold off on major capital spending for now.
 
jimbob said:
I don't think principles need to come into this. Simple self interest. Except that if Trump hadn't trashed US soft power, the European government's might have felt more pressure to support any hypothetical mine clearing operation.
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And if the UK hadn't trashed their own hard power, they might actually have something useful to contribute.
 
Ziggurat said:
They don't have to help him. If Europe wants to leave Hormuz closed, they can.

But the US is a net exporter of oil. Europe isn't.
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Eh, winter is drawing to a close, the EU is rapidly shifting to more renewables and this will just push that even more.
Most Europeans can draw on good and (semi) reliable public transport so gas prices rising will be manageable.
Trade survived Covid, and ships can take alternative routes, so things can even out again over a longer term.
And the social networks in Europe, combined with good labor laws means there is a far smaller part of Europe living paycheck to paycheck, so a price increase means a bit less luxury, not 'I can't pay my rent/mortgage'

On the other hand, the US is totally dependent on using cars, as mentioned the fluctuation of the market will hit US consumers more and your manchild in chief axed all alternative energy projects.

So yeah, it will hurt a bit, but the US voted for this, so let US soldiers die for the glory of their president, not Europeans.
 
Ziggurat said:
Bwahahahahaha!

No, they don't. They just have different interests. And the interests of those governments (or more accurately, their politicians) frequently don't even align with the interests of their own citizens.

How's Germany's decision to shut down its nuclear reactors looking now?
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And yet they are compromising those interests in order to avoid participating in Trump's dirty little war. The rest of the world is content to let Trump send Americans to their deaths for......well... who knows.
 
Ziggurat said:
We haven't abandoned renewables. We're not adopting them as fast as Europe (which is very different from abandoning something you already built, which Germany did with nuclear), but that's not working out real well for Europe either. Much of Europe has electricity costs twice as high as ours.

And if the claims of renewables advocates are to be believed (which they shouldn't be because it never works out that well), renewables technology is advancing rapidly so it actually makes sense to hold off on major capital spending for now.
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Donald wants the USA to be completely free from wind turbines.
He said so yesterday.
 
Andy_Ross said:
Donald wants the USA to be completely free from wind turbines.
He said so yesterday.
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You do realize that this isn't really up to him, right? You do realize he's a ◊◊◊◊ talker, right? And you do realize that wind turbines aren't the only form of renewable energy, right?
 
jimbob said:
Like 8 mine countermeasures vessels?
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Britain’s last Gulf minehunter towed home to save money
"Britain’s only minehunter in the Gulf departed the region days before the war on Iran kicked off and was towed back into Portsmouth on Sunday."

"Four of the Royal Navy’s seven minehunters are unavailable for operations immediately and long delays to the publication of the defence investment plan, expected last autumn, mean decisions are still outstanding on their unmanned replacements."

Your navy is a shell of what it once was. I don't take pleasure in that fact, and neither should you.
 
Ziggurat said:
You do realize that this isn't really up to him, right? You do realize he's a ◊◊◊◊ talker, right? And you do realize that wind turbines aren't the only form of renewable energy, right?
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He wants rid of solar as well, its woke and Chinese.

You know government policy is to move away from renewables in favour of coal.
 
Ziggurat said:
They don't have to help him. If Europe wants to leave Hormuz closed, they can.

But the US is a net exporter of oil. Europe isn't.
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That's not exactly true. The US is a net exporter of Crude Oil and Products. It's still a net importer of Crude Oil.

For the week ending March 6th, for example, the US:

Imported 6.422 million b/d of Crude Oil
Imported 1.7 million b/d of Products - gasoline, ethanol, jet fuel, fuel oils, propane, and other (things like kerosene, asphalt, Natural gas liquids, etc.)
Exported 3.434 million b/d of Crude Oil
Exported 7.013 million b/d of Products, 4.570 million of which was Propane and Other Oils

For the week, that is a Net Import of 2.988 million b/d for Crude Oil and Net Export of 5.460 million b/d of Products, yielding a total export of 2.472 million b/d.

Now of course only around 7-10% of that oil comes from the Middle East, with something like 70% from Canada and Mexico. But I think it's a valid distinction to make.

It's easy to go down a rabbit hole at the EIA's website. So much data and analysis.
 
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Ziggurat said:
Britain’s last Gulf minehunter towed home to save money
"Britain’s only minehunter in the Gulf departed the region days before the war on Iran kicked off and was towed back into Portsmouth on Sunday."

"Four of the Royal Navy’s seven minehunters are unavailable for operations immediately and long delays to the publication of the defence investment plan, expected last autumn, mean decisions are still outstanding on their unmanned replacements."

Your navy is a shell of what it once was. I don't take pleasure in that fact, and neither should you.
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It wasn't towed back, it was towed in to dock by a tug, it's what they do.

The RN was gutted by 14 years of deliberate Tory austerity and cuts.
The only reason we have the carriers is because they were started by the last Labour government.

When the Tories are in power they cut defence spending, they always have. Maggie had already arranged to sell the Invincible class carriers and Hermes when the Falklands blew up due to her scrapping the Antarctic patrol
Cameron finished the job when he got in, the Invincibles were supposed to stay in service until the new carriers were ready with the Harriers going aboard until the F-35s came in.
Instead he scrapped them as doon as he won the election to savta few million. So we ended up with carriers but no aircraft for a while.
He then got un to Syria and had to rent airfield space of Italy and spend more then scrapping the carriers and Harriers would have saved.

Labour are increasing spending on the fleet and new ships are under construction and coming in to service.

We still gave more MCM ships than the USA
 
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Ziggurat said:
I never suggested it wasn't. Nevertheless, it's not available for use.

I don't care which UK party is to blame. I'm not taking sides in your domestic disputes.
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Until Donald did his surprise attack on Iran the MCM ship wasn't needed in the Gulf for mine countermeasures, it was acting as a patrol ship, it came home for a refit. Another ship would have been put on patrol to replace it.
If Donald had talked to his allies things could have been coordinated.
 
Ziggurat said:
You do realize that this isn't really up to him, right? You do realize he's a ◊◊◊◊ talker, right? And you do realize that wind turbines aren't the only form of renewable energy, right?
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I'm not sure it's a mitigating factor that the POTUS is utterly erratic and makes multiple stupid policies that he sometimes but not always completely backtracks on.

How are we supposed to work out which stupid ideas he'll follow through on , and which he'll quietly abandon?
 
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