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Ed Israel/US Attacks Iran /Yet Another Country/Iran

Andy_Ross said:
Because third parties have located the site of the failed missile launch and the destroyed school.
They are in completely different parts of the country.
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That's a reason to not believe a specific counter claim. It's not a reason to believe the original Iranian claim.
 
Safe-Keeper said:
Spare me. It's well established that HAMAS uses human shields. They're also an irredeemable dictatorship and there's no reason for you to carry water for them.

Seriously, this is what I hate about the Israel-Palestine 'debate' --two factions each sitting in their own trench condemning all the horrors from 'the other side' while for some inexplicable reason thinking they have to simultaneously defend, deflect, or excuse everything their side does. Hearing HAMAS apologists frantically go 'but but but there's only so much space in a city so sometimes a bunker full of weapons and rockets just ends up being sited in the basement of a school (or 'a few metres away' in your case) and whatabout this whataboutism?!' is like listening to trumpkins who think they have to tie themselves into pretzels or start screaming about Obama and Biden every time they see criticism of their Holy Führer. And before you come at me, yes, I know both sides do it, I hate it just as much when it comes from the IDF apologists. I don't know what it is about this particular conflict that makes ordinarily level-headed and rational people turn into screaming apologists for dictatorship, murder, and genocide, but I'm so sick and tired of seeing it.

Look, the Israel-Palestine cluster◊◊◊◊ consists of two horrible factions of religious maniacs, each trying to wipe the opposing people off the face of the earth. Both wantonly use tactics and strategies that have no place in the civilized world, and have done so for close to a century. Picking one side to cheerlead and thinking that while you're at it you also need to excuse all the horrible things they do isn't going to lead to peace or better conditions for either people, in fact, all HAMAS has accomplished with decades and decades of terror and oppression (most of all to their own people, which so-called Palestine supporters claim to be fighting for) is losing more and more and more of Gaza, and giving Israel a steady stream of casus bellis to keep justifying their own atrocities. You'd think that at some point the 'Palestine supporters' would open their eyes and go 'hey, you know, maybe we shouldn't be defending all this stuff, not only is it beyond the pale but it's also not even working!'. Or at least 'hey, why are we defending HAMAS anyway, they're dreadful people and even without all the things the Israelis do, they still treat their people horribly, shouldn't we be advocating for democracy or something?'.

/rant
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When have I ever excused bad things done by Hamas? I have always condemned them. I have always said both sides should be judged equally. But Hamas no longer sends missiles into Israel. Israel continues to kill Gazan children. Israel has killed more Gazan children than the total number killed on 7/10. There is a point at which self defence becomes homicide. Israel has long passed the point at which attacking Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, Syrians, Lebanese and Iranians is a necessary for self defence. The US has caused the deaths of over 5,000,000 muslims since 9/11. My guess is Trump wants to exceed the religiously oriented killing of the Nazis and get Muslim deaths over 6,000,000 before he leaves office. Two thousand Muslim deaths for every 9/11 death.

Remember it was democracy that brought Hamas to power in gaza. It was a denial of democracy by the US et al. in refusing to recognise the democratically elected government in Gaza that probably contributed to violence. Just as the US refused to recognise the democratically elected government in Iran and overthrew it, installing the Shah.

Hamas was far less oppressive than Israeli occupation forces have been in Gaza and the West Bank.

How many hostages does Israel hold? How many dead children's bodies do they refuse to return to their parents for burial? Jewish terrorist attacks on Palestinians Christian and Muslim accelerate.

How many Muslims have been tortured and held without trial by the US. Let alone suffered extra judicial execution.

How many Iranians were killed by US facilitated chemical warfare?
 
Planigale said:
When have I ever excused bad things done by Hamas? I have always condemned them. I have always said both sides should be judged equally.
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Its simple really. When you attack Israel, I consider that you are, by default supporting Hamas and Islamist terrorism. You are also supporting Iran's backing of such terrorism.

Why is this? Because there is no world which Iran, or the Islamic terrorists and fundamentalists they support, will ever, EVER accept the existence of Israel or any Jewish state in any form.

On this issue, lefty progressives are just a bunch of naive idealists. You can't negotiate with Islamist extremists - and anyone who thinks they can is a fool.

Never forget that Islamic extremists are not interested in any peace that involves the existence of a Jewish state.

Never forget their whole fundamentalist stated aim is the complete destruction of Israel and the complete and utter extermination of every Jew on the planet

Never forget that when they are done with the Jews, they will be coming after Christians and apostates.

Israel is fighting for its very existence, and when you attack them, you give solace to their enemies.

Always keep in mind
- it wasn't Jews who flew four airliners into the Twin Towers.
- it wasn't Jews who bombed Manchester Arena.
- it wasn't Jews who bombed Madrid Communter Railways
- it wasn't Jews that bombed the London tube, buses and railways.
- it wasn't Jews that bombed embassies in Nairobi and Dar Es Salaam
- it wasn't Jews who bombed Pan Am 103

Every one of you here has a target on your back...and I promise you, it is not Israel or the Jews taking aim.
 
smartcooky said:
Its simple really. When you attack Israel, I consider that you are, by default supporting Hamas and Islamist terrorism. You are also supporting Iran's backing of such terrorism.

Why is this? Because there is no world which Iran, or the Islamic terrorists and fundamentalists they support, will ever, EVER accept the existence of Israel or any Jewish state in any form.

On this issue, lefty progressives are just a bunch of naive idealists. You can't negotiate with Islamist extremists - and anyone who thinks they can is a fool.

Never forget that Islamic extremists are not interested in any peace that involves the existence of a Jewish state.

Never forget their whole fundamentalist stated aim is the complete destruction of Israel and the complete and utter extermination of every Jew on the planet

Never forget that when they are done with the Jews, they will be coming after Christians and apostates.

Israel is fighting for its very existence, and when you attack them, you give solace to their enemies.

Always keep in mind
- it wasn't Jews who flew four airliners into the Twin Towers.
- it wasn't Jews who bombed Manchester Arena.
- it wasn't Jews who bombed Madrid Communter Railways
- it wasn't Jews that bombed the London tube, buses and railways.
- it wasn't Jews that bombed embassies in Nairobi and Dar Es Salaam
- it wasn't Jews who bombed Pan Am 103

Every one of you here has a target on your back...and I promise you, it is not Israel or the Jews taking aim.
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Is there anything Israel could do that you would consider worthy of criticism?
 
LiteBright said:
Is there anything Israel could do that you would consider worthy of criticism?
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Yeah

1. Terrorist attacks against "bystander" counties such as at the US, Canada, Australia, UK and NZ (and to be clear, countries that host Islamic terrorists, ad from where terrorist attacks or ricket attacks are launched, are not bystanders)

2. Actually TARGETING civilians.... and I know some people claim they do but its a flat out lie from people who parrot Islamic media such as Al Jazeera (a.k.a. TNN - Terrorist News Network), or western media who uncritically repeat those claims without fact checking. The IDF do everything reasonably possible to warn civilians of impending attacks (roof knocking, broadcasts etc)

3. Using nukes!
 
smartcooky said:
Israel is fighting for its very existence, and when you attack them, you give solace to their enemies.

Always keep in mind
- it wasn't Jews who flew four airliners into the Twin Towers.
- it wasn't Jews who bombed Manchester Arena.
- it wasn't Jews who bombed Madrid Communter Railways
- it wasn't Jews that bombed the London tube, buses and railways.
- it wasn't Jews that bombed embassies in Nairobi and Dar Es Salaam
- it wasn't Jews who bombed Pan Am 103
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Oh, so it's okay to conflate the State of Israel with the Jewish People when you do it?
 
All people in the West Bank are civilians, they didn't attack on 7/10 and Israel and its terrorist settlers are attacking them sll the time, killing them and stealing their land.

It is a mental illness that Israel no-matter-what supporters think that these are two different Israels committing violence against Palestinians.
 
smartcooky said:
Its simple really. When you attack Israel, I consider that you are, by default supporting Hamas and Islamist terrorism. You are also supporting Iran's backing of such terrorism.

Why is this? Because there is no world which Iran, or the Islamic terrorists and fundamentalists they support, will ever, EVER accept the existence of Israel or any Jewish state in any form.
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You are absolutely correct. As I have said repeatedly, Israel offered Palestinians the best deal they will ever get at Camp David. The fact the offer was rejected should have been the clearest message to everyone of their intentions.

Too many people in this thread would, I believe, welcome the dissolution of Israel - why not, when most of the UN would welcome the same thing? Israel has been under existential threat for its entire existence. They are not going anywhere and will continue to defend itself whether people like it or not.

Now cue bleats like “Israel can defend itself, but aren’t allowed to retaliate” or “response to attacks must be proportional” and similar rubbish.
 
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The Great Zaganza said:
All people in the West Bank are civilians, they didn't attack on 7/10 and Israel and its terrorist settlers are attacking them sll the time, killing them and stealing their land.

It is a mental illness that Israel no-matter-what supporters think that these are two different Israels committing violence against Palestinians.
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That’s the best you’ve got “disagree with my position or you are mentally ill”?

Kindergarten insults are supposed to convince people of anything?
 
lionking said:
You are absolutely correct. As I have said repeatedly, Israel offered Palestinians the best deal they will ever get at Camp David. The fact the offer was rejected should have been the clearest message to everyone of their intentions.
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There was an even better one earlier, and this bears repeating for all the nonces in the audience who willfully ignored it the first time....


On Sept. 13, 1993, President Bill Clinton hosted Yitzhak Rabin (Israeli Prime Minster ) and Yasser Arafat (President of the Palestinian National Authority) in a ceremony in which a preliminary Israeli-Palestinian peace accord would be signed.

It fell though. Bill Clinton later recounted “The only time Yasser Arafat didn’t tell me the truth was when he promised he was going to accept the peace deal that we had worked out which would have given the Palestinians...

a. A state that was 96% of the West Bank and 4% of Israel, and
b. A capital in East Jerusalem, and
c. Two of the four quadrants of the old city of Jerusalem"

The Palestinians said no. Arafat chose to turn down the peace deal of a lifetime and the establishment of a Palestinian state and instead, chose to launch a terror war that would bury the dream of Palestinian self-determination even deeper in the sand.

Twelve years later, despite the Palestinians ongoing refusal negotiate in good faith, any kind of peace deal, Israel themselves acted to try to bring peace to the region. In a unilateral decision by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip and from four settlements in the West Bank... they handed it all over to the Palestinians. The US and others stated there should be elections in Gaza, and there were. The Palestinian Authority had what they always wanted... a Palestine free of Jews.

So in 2006 the Gazans, instead for voting for a democracy by electing Fatah into government, instead voted for Hamas... and then Hamas promptly murdered all its high-ranking political opponents in Fatah... threw them off buildings, shot them in the back, dragged their bodies behind trucks through Gaza. Hamas then ruled Gaza for the next 18 years. The international community had poured billions of dollars in funding into Gaza in 2005, and with all that money from the goodwill of the rest of the world, they had a chance (18 years) to bring forth a new generation of well educated young Gazans to help build a state, and give the Palestinian people the chance to have the full, productive, happy lives they deserved. But Hamas didn't do that. Instead of pouring those billions of foreign aid dollars into building a new Riviera at the eastern end of the Mediterranean, they ploughed all that money into building tunnels underground, literally preparing the ground to fight a war they were always going to start with Israel... which they did on October 7, 2023.

And as for Khal Mashal (chairman of the Hamas Political Bureau from 1996 until May 2017) and others in the Hamas hierarchy, well they bought themselves luxury penthouses in Doha. That's where all the foreign aid money went!!

So, given all this is recorded, factual history, the question I have is this.... Why should Israel allow itself to be pushed by the international community into trying the same experiment again, when anyone with a functional brain knows it will just yield the same result all over again?

Hamas are not interested in peace. They are interested in one, and only thing... wiping all Jews of the face of the earth.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
All people in the West Bank are civilians,
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Oh rubbish. You have no ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ idea!

There are hundred of terrorist cells (Palestinian Jihad) in the West Bank, particularly in Jenin, Kedumim, Tulkarm and Hebron. There are also rocket launch sites from which rockets have been fired into Israel.

The Great Zaganza said:
they didn't attack on 7/10
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Yes they did? What planet are you on

The Great Zaganza said:
... and Israel and its terrorist settlers are attacking them sll the time, killing them and stealing their land.
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Islamist propaganda
 
arthwollipot said:
Good show. Thanks for explaining explicitly to us how far you've fallen.
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I have not fallen anywhere - if anything, I have woken up to the lies of the far left.

I always viewed Anti-Israel and anti-Semitism as separate... October 7 was a watershed moment for me that changed my views. That was an attack on both Israel AND the Jewsih people. I have seen actual uncensored photographs of some of the things that those bastards did to Jewish children and babies, and then they celebrated what they did, and told their own families how proud they were to have done what they did... and these are the people that YOU support. Islamists are vermin, just like the Nazis - and their targets are Jews - just like the Nazis

....and that this is the side you are on, - these are the vermin you support.
 
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Critics of Israel still have the hope that it will abandon its headlong rush into internal and external self-immolation.
Blindly supporting it is just pouring gas on the fire
 
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smartcooky said:
Its simple really. When you attack Israel, I consider that you are, by default supporting Hamas and Islamist terrorism. You are also supporting Iran's backing of such terrorism.

Why is this? Because there is no world which Iran, or the Islamic terrorists and fundamentalists they support, will ever, EVER accept the existence of Israel or any Jewish state in any form.

On this issue, lefty progressives are just a bunch of naive idealists. You can't negotiate with Islamist extremists - and anyone who thinks they can is a fool.

Never forget that Islamic extremists are not interested in any peace that involves the existence of a Jewish state.

Never forget their whole fundamentalist stated aim is the complete destruction of Israel and the complete and utter extermination of every Jew on the planet

Never forget that when they are done with the Jews, they will be coming after Christians and apostates.

Israel is fighting for its very existence, and when you attack them, you give solace to their enemies.

Always keep in mind
- it wasn't Jews who flew four airliners into the Twin Towers. - it wasn't Jews who bombed Manchester Arena. - it wasn't Jews who bombed Madrid Communter Railways - it wasn't Jews that bombed the London tube, buses and railways. - it wasn't Jews that bombed embassies in Nairobi and Dar Es Salaam - it wasn't Jews who bombed Pan Am 103
Every one of you here has a target on your back...and I promise you, it is not Israel or the Jews taking aim.
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All Sunni muslims, not Shia, not Iran. I am sure similar claims were made about the PLO and arab countries not recognising Israel.

Hamas have said that the would recognise Israel on 1968 borders. Hamas have said that they do not seek the extermination of Jews.

So what you post is factually untrue.

Hamas said that its fight was against the “racist, aggressive, colonial and expansionist” Zionist project, Israel, but not against Judaism or Jews.
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2017 Hamas charter - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
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