Trump's promised ICE raids have begun

Ugh, are you just going to double down when you have nothing?
Do you dispute that Texas and Florida each still have an order of magnitude more undocumented immigrants? Yet the surge is somehow in Minnesota, where a federal judge suggested ICE would be more successful if they stopped harassing protesters and shooting them in the face. And it's not as if the Trump regime's high-ranking officials have been keeping the quiet part quiet about why ICE is really there. You guys are your own worst enemies.
 
If response here is unclear, it's addressed mainly to Trausti's preceding posts....

The difference we're seeing here is how it's done. I suppose maybe it's a matter of reporting, but given the penchant of conservatives for reporting the worst when Democrats are in power that seems dubious. I do not recall hearing stories of hordes of masked, armed, armored ICE gunmen invading cities and arresting citizens during Obama's tenure. Armored cars, troops at the ready, guns drawn. Beating down doors and leading citizens out into the cold half dressed and lying about the reasons. Shooting citizens dead in cars, deporting American born children to countries unconnected to their parent's origins... etc. etc. If they did, I think you're falling down on the job by not finding them for us!

I find it ironic and odd that when issues like this come up, one of the first things pointed out (Trump did it too in campaigning) is that a lot of deportation happened during Obama's presidency. And yet at the same time the borders were said to be open. Those two don't combine very well. And somehow, despite deporting a number of immigrants suddenly found inconveniently large, Obama did not need to call out the National Guard or threaten the insurrection act, or storm into cities to terrorize their citizens.

If the actual goal is to get rid of the most, most dangerous, illegal immigrants, it should not matter what their politics or the politics of their cities are. ICE should go to the places where the most can be found. Those places are not Minnesota. Once again, as usual, the only reasonable excuse for their action, if political recrimination and racism are denied, is incompetence.

You're in a tough position here, I think, when the main alternatives are evil and stupidity, and even those are not mutually exclusive. Ice is incompetent and inefficient, because it is not doing ICE's job. It's doing Trump's and Trump is an enemy of the people.
 
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Do you dispute that Texas and Florida each still have an order of magnitude more undocumented immigrants? Yet the surge is somehow in Minnesota, where a federal judge suggested ICE would be more successful if they stopped harassing protesters and shooting them in the face. And it's not as if the Trump regime's high-ranking officials have been keeping the quiet part quiet about why ICE is really there. You guys are your own worst enemies.
Example

Donald J. Trump
@realDonald Trump
Just watched footage of the Church Raid in Minnesota by the agitators and insurrectionists. These people are professionals! No person acts the way they act. They are highly trained to scream, rant, and rave, like lunatics, in a certain manner, just like they are doing. They are troublemakers who should be thrown in jail, or thrown out of the Country. The first to go should be Walz, and Fake Sleazebag, Ilhan Omar, who is supposedly worth over $30 Million Dollars, even though she's never had anything but a Government job. Investigate these Corrupt Politicians, and do it now!
 
Stephen Miller
@StephenM
Over sixteen hundred times judges have unconstitutionally and unlawfully ordered the release of illegal aliens. No democracy can function this way.
 
Example

Donald J. Trump
@realDonald Trump
Just watched footage of the Church Raid in Minnesota by the agitators and insurrectionists. These people are professionals! No person acts the way they act. They are highly trained to scream, rant, and rave, like lunatics, in a certain manner, just like they are doing. They are troublemakers who should be thrown in jail, or thrown out of the Country. The first to go should be Walz, and Fake Sleazebag, Ilhan Omar, who is supposedly worth over $30 Million Dollars, even though she's never had anything but a Government job. Investigate these Corrupt Politicians, and do it now!
Fake sleazebag? So not a sleazebag, then? Good to know.
Stephen Miller
@StephenM
Over sixteen hundred times judges have unconstitutionally and unlawfully ordered the release of illegal aliens. No democracy can function this way.
Shouldn't be a problem for this administration, in other words.
 
Do you dispute that Texas and Florida each still have an order of magnitude more undocumented immigrants? Yet the surge is somehow in Minnesota, where a federal judge suggested ICE would be more successful if they stopped harassing protesters and shooting them in the face. And it's not as if the Trump regime's high-ranking officials have been keeping the quiet part quiet about why ICE is really there. You guys are your own worst enemies.

when somebody is playing make believe it's kind of rude not to play along
 
Curiously, the only aspect of this church disruption event I've come across is the furious reaction of the Trump regime (which is pretty clearly signalling this, at last, is the excuse they feel justifies escalating their oppression). I've seen nothing describing what actually occurred. I guess it's not dramatic enough to make international news. I infer nobody got shot in the face, for example.

Can anyone briefly describe what actually happened?
 
Donald J. Trump
@realDonald Trump
Just watched footage of the Church Raid in Minnesota by the agitators and insurrectionists. These people are professionals! No person acts the way they act. They are highly trained to scream, rant, and rave, like lunatics, in a certain manner, just like they are doing. They are troublemakers who should be thrown in jail, or thrown out of the Country. The first to go should be Walz, and Fake Sleazebag, Ilhan Omar, who is supposedly worth over $30 Million Dollars, even though she's never had anything but a Government job. Investigate these Corrupt Politicians, and do it now!
Donald J Trump is an insurrectionist. Trump is also a professional con man. It is often said that no person would act the way Trump acts, but he is the counterexample: He does act that way. He screams, rants, and raves like a lunatic, in both certain and increasingly uncertain manners. In his calmer moments, he likes to describe his manner as a weave—of course, anyone weaving like that on the sidewalks of a major city would find himself spending the rest of his day in a drunk tank. Trump makes trouble, and it isn't good trouble. He should be in prison and might well be in prison if a plurality of the electorate hadn't elected to pardon his crimes. Trump has set a standard that future Corrupt Politicians may never equal.

Trump is not a fake sleazebag. He is the real thing.
 
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Obviously I mean that's not how it works under the constitution. State and local law enforcement are not under the authority of the U.S. Dept. of Justice or any other federal authority. They receive orders only from state or local leaders such as governors and mayors. AG Pam Bondi has no more authority to order the Minneapolis police department to "stand down" or "surrender" (as if those are even things a police department can do) than she does to order Pizza Hut to start serving champagne. Sec. Noem has the same problem, as does Pres. Trump. No officer of the federal government can issue binding orders to state and local law enforcement except by permission of the state and local commanders of those forces.

What might happen instead is that by some bogus invocation of the Insurrection Act and by means of U.S. Army troops now being mobilized for a possible invasion, the President will try to suppress local and state law enforcement by force, perhaps arresting them and charging them with fabricated offenses against federal law.
Yes, I understood what you meant. And I think you understand what I meant. It'll be on future historians to pinpoint exactly when the US government broke free of its own rule of law*, but we're clearly past it now. Telling each other "they can't do that it's illegal" unfortunately doesn't mean anything is going to stop it happening.

*I'd theorize it happened in 2008 with the "too big to fail" bailout. Different crisis, different actors, but it cemented the notion that rules don't matter if there are no consequences for breaking them.
 
Curiously, the only aspect of this church disruption event I've come across is the furious reaction of the Trump regime (which is pretty clearly signalling this, at last, is the excuse they feel justifies escalating their oppression). I've seen nothing describing what actually occurred. I guess it's not dramatic enough to make international news. I infer nobody got shot in the face, for example.

Can anyone briefly describe what actually happened?
Protesters turned up at a church were the pastor is also an ICE agent
 
Yes, I understood what you meant. And I think you understand what I meant.
Yes, you and I are on the same page. But many Americans don't know how their government actually works. Consequently they're taken in by the false notion that the federal government has plenipotentiary authority. A number of people in the U.S. will be quite willing to endorse harsh retribution against Minnesota officials on the pretext that they disobeyed a lawful order to "stand down" and "surrender." Trump regime officials absolutely count on this ignorance to maintain public support. Hence there has to be a countervailing narrative, even if it seems rote and pedantic.

It'll be on future historians to pinpoint exactly when the US government broke free of its own rule of law*, but we're clearly past it now.
My money is on Bush v. Gore (2000). Once the people who exercise unreviewable authority for life step unmasked into partisan politics, it's all over. Your pinpoint at 2008 makes a lot of sense too—it's when the power brokers realized they could pillage with impunity. But yes, we're past it. The rule of law is essentially dead in the Trump regime. As the law commentators put it, we now have rule by law.

Telling each other "they can't do that it's illegal" unfortunately doesn't mean anything is going to stop it happening.
That's the practical reality. But if fact-checking doesn't matter in principle even in the face of overriding falsehood, then all we skeptics might just turn out the lights and go home.
 
The difference we're seeing here is how it's done. I suppose maybe it's a matter of reporting, but given the penchant of conservatives for reporting the worst when Democrats are in power that seems dubious. I do not recall hearing stories of hordes of masked, armed, armored ICE gunmen invading cities and arresting citizens during Obama's tenure.
This says it better than I did. Before Pres. Trump's second term, ICE wasn't the brutal, heavily-armed, paramilitary stormtroopers you see today. It was a small, relatively benign, ununiformed, mostly unarmed service that people vaguely knew existed but rarely if ever saw. They were still quite effective at their mission as such, because they were actually focused on their mission. Nobody protested ICE because ICE didn't do anything worth protesting. Their tactics were reasonable and effective.

The right doesn't want to concede what we can all see: that the mission of ICE has quite evidently shifted to focus on harassing Donald Trump's political enemies. They are the road crew in Trump's Revenge Tour. The right is still trying to equivocate between brutal, indiscriminate tactics that are plainly in evidence and the long-forgotten mission of efficiently removing undocumented immigrants with removal orders obtained via due process. The problem with this equivocation is that the Trump officials keep saying the quiet part loud. They can't help themselves. They pounced immediately on the narrative focusing on observers and protesters as the lawless, well-organized enemy within.

If the actual goal is to get rid of the most, most dangerous, illegal immigrants, it should not matter what their politics or the politics of their cities are. ICE should go to the places where the most can be found. Those places are not Minnesota. Once again, as usual, the only reasonable excuse for their action, if political recrimination and racism are denied, is incompetence.

You're in a tough position here, I think, when the main alternatives are evil and stupidity, and even those are not mutually exclusive. Ice is incompetent and inefficient, because it is not doing ICE's job. It's doing Trump's and Trump is an enemy of the people.
ICE can be both evil and incompetent. The present ICE hiring process fails to catch either. If you just want to brutalize people with impunity, the process won't weed you out as it ordinarily should. It might even invite you. Want to relive the glory days of being a soldier? Want to strut around in body armor with a machine gun, but couldn't make the cut in a regular armed service? ICE has your back. No background checks, no meaningful training, and a generous signing bonus.

The patent incompetence and dubious motives of the modern ICE army is supposed to be brushed aside according to the right's rhetoric that they're doing a Very Important and Dangerous Job that can suffer no criticism or impediment. But a peaceful civilian population has every right to object to the sudden appearance of window-smashing, mom-shooting thugs. The objection is not because they want violent undocumented immigrants to roam free. The objection is that violent gangs of lawless armed thugs are so much worse.

A federal judge agrees, but of course the Trump regime just ignores it. What's remarkable about the judge's decision is that it's predicated on a veritable glut of reliable evidence of ICE's atrocities in Minneapolis. ICE observers did their proper jobs. They collected evidence and brought it to court, where it was tried and acted upon. That's the rule of law—or at least the tattered remnants of it under Donald Trump and his minions. All ICE could say to the judge in response was an unsworn, contemptuous, "Nuh-uhh!" Not that I think this battle will be won in court. The right's idea of the rule of law seems to be whatever the armed thugs operating under color of law tell you they want. Pres. Trump is already mobilizing the regular military to descend upon Minnesota and overwhelm its lawfully elected and sworn officers with sheer numbers.
 
Protesters turned up at a church were the pastor is also an ICE agent
The problem is that churches are private property. Thus entering one for the purpose of disturbing its occupants or owners is easily seen as trespassing. People have a right to peaceably assemble and protest on their own private property or on public property, but not uninvited on someone else's private property. Happily there is, as yet, no law against "desecrating a place of worship." And if the protest is against the pastor's political activity and not his religious expression, there's no colorable claim of religious persecution and therefore no civil rights claim. But this can be considered straightforward trespassing. However, federal law can forbid trespassing only on land owned or operated by the federal government. Trespassing charges would have to be brought under state law. There might be some reluctance on the part of state authorities to prosecute in this case.
 

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