Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Ziggurat]

You keep saying 'they' like 'they' are actual people.

Of course they are actual people.

'They' aren't. The idea self supports

Lawsuits don't file themselves. Legislation doesn't pass itself. Death threats against TERFs don't manifest themselves. There are actual people behind this. It's not a centralized movement, sure, but it is absolutely made up of actual people.

 

[Emily's Cat]

While I get your point, I don't think it has teeth. For starters, who are these omnipotent TRAs? I'm not convinced there are any with influence, nor have I read the works or words of any. The idea of gender as being more significant than it was prreviously realized gets presented, and the argument proceeds without anyone feeding into it. Like, I don't recall a single advocate presenting a single persuasive argument to yours truly, and when they are presented (ie: a guy wanting a bikini wax or gynecological exam), it falls flat. The extreme positions being relied on are not really the core of the debate. They are fringe matrers.

The extreme positions are kind of what went in front of the supreme court yesterday, with the ACLU trying to argue that barring males with transgender identities from playing on female teams under Title IX was discrimination on the basis of *sex*.

 

[Emily's Cat]

...horse. Not much reason to call them anything else in common usage. Not much call for playing a game of mareshoes.

So all horses can bear young?

....chicken. Same thing. Never asked for a bucket of Kentucky Fried Hen.

And all chickens lay eggs?

...fox. Same thing. Further distinction arely matters outside of breeding matters.

And all foxes gestate kits?

...cow. Sometimes dinner. Usually call the male ones cows too, because who the hell cares?

And all cows produce milk?

...colorful and expressive variety of names, because we are multi faceted and dimensioned creatures, unlike livestock.

Therefore the female half of the population doesn't deserve to have a term that covers both our sex and our species?

 

[Thermal]

So all horses can bear young?

And all chickens lay eggs?

And all foxes gestate kits?

And all cows produce milk?

Couldn't care less.Such distinctions have no relevance to everyday life. Not remotely concerned with the nipple utility of a fox I see on the beach.

Therefore the female half of the population doesn't deserve to have a term that covers both our sex and our species?

What "deserves"? Even term i use is more apt and descriptive than the generic 'woman'. Wife mother, daughter, enginerr, lawyer, and yes even "person" are better.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You keep saying 'they' like 'they' are actual people. 'They' aren't. The idea self supports, and is persuasive on its own, without these spooky TRAs with extreme views that get used to argue against the standalone idea.

How exactly is the idea that males should be entitled to play on female teams based on their internal feelings about their gender souls rather than on the reality of their physical bodies a "self supporting and persuasive" idea? Because I am entirely UNpersuaded and I find the idea absurd and deeply unfair to the female half of the population.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Couldn't care less.Such distinctions have no relevance to everyday life. Not remotely concerned with the nipple utility of a fox I see on the beach.

Let me know how that bull milk tastes, and how those rooster eggs cook up.

 

[Thermal]

How exactly is the idea that males should be entitled to play on female teams based on their internal feelings about their gender souls rather than on the reality of their physical bodies a "self supporting and persuasive" idea? Because I am entirely UNpersuaded and I find the idea absurd and deeply unfair to the female half of the population.

Agreed. And? Your reply has nothing to do with thd post you quoted.

 

[smartcooky]

My full post was

So smartcooky definitely is mixing sex and gender in that statement, contrary to what you think. You snipped my post but do you have an answer to the full post?

No, I am not!!
The definition of woman that I use is "Adult Human Biological Female". That is description of sex NOT gender.
"Father" is a gender role
"Mother" is a gender role
"Man" and "Woman" are not!

 

[John Freestone]

How exactly is the idea that males should be entitled to play on female teams based on their internal feelings about their gender souls rather than on the reality of their physical bodies a "self supporting and persuasive" idea? Because I am entirely UNpersuaded and I find the idea absurd and deeply unfair to the female half of the population.

Hmm, I've never seen anyone suggest the idea of the "self-supporting idea" before. I thought ideas were supported and propagated in people's brains. Maybe Thermal thinks they just float about in the aether.

 

[John Freestone]

No, I am not!!
The definition of woman that I use is "Adult Human Biological Female". That is description of sex NOT gender.
"Father" is a gender role
"Mother" is a gender role
"Man" and "Woman" are not!

Well, erm, "father" and "mother" can be considered gender roles colloquially, but they too have strict biological definitions. Also, I resist using "biological" ahead of "female", "male" or "sex", since it's tautology, and subtly reinforces in some the idea that there's a non-biological sex if you had to qualify it as such.

 

[theprestige]

Maybe Thermal is crypto-trolling again. I eagerly await his admission that once again he was only pretending to be retarded.

 

[Rolfe]

Who said anything about omnipotent? I didn't. I said they had political power. They absolutely do.

We have a supreme court justice who claims not to know the definition of "woman", and you think they don't have influence? Twitter used to ban people for using the "wrong" pronouns, that's not influence? California passed laws to allow males in female prisons based on self ID and allowing schools to trans kids without parental notification, that's not influence? Sports organizations were compelled by the government to let men compete in women's categories, that's not influence?

Your metric for influence is miscalibrated.

The BBC had a "trans desk" staffed by TRAs, and every story even touching on trans issues had to be approved by them. The result was a constant stream of pro-trans stories and programming, with no contrary opinion allowed. Anything that showed the transcult in a bad light was simply not reported on.

It's supposed to have been disbanded but its influence lives on.

 

[Rolfe]

...horse. Not much reason to call them anything else in common usage. Not much call for playing a game of mareshoes.

....chicken. Same thing. Never asked for a bucket of Kentucky Fried Hen.

...fox. Same thing. Further distinction arely matters outside of breeding matters.

...cow. Sometimes dinner. Usually call the male ones cows too, because who the hell cares?

...colorful and expressive variety of names, because we are multi faceted and dimensioned creatures, unlike livestock.

That's ridiculous. Or American. Who knows. Mare, hen, vixen, cow (there are no male cows), also ewe, nanny, bitch, doe, sow and so on are common parlance.

 

[Rolfe]

I can guarantee that my farts will take me to the moon, but did you see any transpeople going into the wrong doors? Did you get any data on the male/female instead of man/woman conundrum? Where is it in england as there's actually useful data to be found there.

edit: sorry for my rudeness I saw flat and larp heh oops, it would be interesting to see what happens though.

Killington Lake service station on the M6.

 

[d4m10n]

...you can't get a TRA to not be a TRA by clarifying sex vs gender, because they didn't become TRAs by simply being confused about sex vs gender. Most TRAs become TRAs by signing up for an entire progressive world view, and the trans agenda just happens to fit nicely into that oppressor/oppressed paradigm.

I'm not particularly worried about talking trans rights activists out of their version of the progressive worldview, because activists are either paid to take a certain view or else highly-motivated volunteers who've passed a number of ideological purity tests. I am much more concerned with persuading regular people who've been taken in by the activist memes but haven't really thought hard about these specific issues. For that latter group, I think @p0lka's suggested approach of clarifying the key terms might actually go quite a long way. That said, even activists are not beyond changing their minds over time. Assuming Google Books links are reliable here, you can read about how that happened to Robert Wintemute over the course of decades.

The vast uncommitted middle doesn't really care about rigorous definitions on the topic either, because that's just too much work.

I do not share your pessimism on this point, at least not when it comes to people who lurk on discussion forums like this one. I expect those folks are actually hoping to see various ideas tried and tested against each other. Random folks on the street probably not so much, but I try not to engage them with activist talking points anymore.

 

[Ziggurat]

I'm not particularly worried about talking trans rights activists out of their version of the progressive worldview, because activists are either paid to take a certain view or else highly-motivated volunteers who've passed a number of ideological purity tests. I am much more concerned with persuading regular people who've been taken in by the activist memes but haven't really thought hard about these specific issues. For that latter group, I think @p0lka's suggested approach of clarifying the key terms might actually go quite a long way.

But he isn't even really advocating clarifying terms, because the terms are pretty clear already. What he's advocating is changing labels, and that only really makes sense because the terms are already sufficiently clear.

And his proposal is pointless for another reason I haven't really touched on but still matters. If you're in a position to change the labels on a bathroom, then either you can also set the policy (making the change of labels superfluous) or you CAN'T change the policy because it's set by government, in which case changing the labels is irrelevant because you're stuck with the government's policy. In neither case does the label change really accomplish anything significant. It might make more difference if ALL the labels got changed, but that's not going to happen, because some of the people in charge of the labels side with the TRAs.

The policy is what really matters. Changing the labels doesn't change the policy.

 

[d4m10n]

The policy is what really matters. Changing the labels doesn't change the policy.

Changing the labels would be one way to indicate that the policy has changed, assuming that proprietors are allowed to make the call themselves. Many people here have been arguing that the government has to mandate sex-segregated spaces, whereas people in the SGU skeptic forum would argue that the government has to mandate gender identity spaces instead. Neither of those camps would be happy allowing this to play out in the marketplace of ideas, they want to win completely and immediately via an authoritarian approach.

 

[Ziggurat]

Changing the labels would be one way to indicate that the policy has changed

But that's not what p0lka was arguing for.

 

[smartcooky]

The BBC had a "trans desk" staffed by TRAs, and every story even touching on trans issues had to be approved by them. The result was a constant stream of pro-trans stories and programming, with no contrary opinion allowed. Anything that showed the transcult in a bad light was simply not reported on.

It's supposed to have been disbanded but its influence lives on.

Indeed it does. One well known BBC presenter, Martine Croxall was censured for referring to "pregnant people" as women!!

 

[Ziggurat]

"Father" is a gender role
"Mother" is a gender role

I disagree. When "father" and "mother" are listed on a birth certificate, those are biological reproductive sex roles, not gender roles.