Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[p0lka]

The terms have never, ever been the problem. The problem has always been conflicting goals. When will you realize this?

I know YOU said society. Do you know why *I* said government? Do you understand the role government plays in this conflict?

No, you clearly don't. Because you don't understand the issue at all. You think it's about words. It isn't. It never has been.

Conflict? wow.

 

[p0lka]

Also Ziggurat, you are helping the TRa's by fighting over a concept (gender) and trying to own it against an imagined war with the tra's who are also trying to own it. Do what I suggest and make it irrelevant, then it will disappear in a puff of smoke as you and the tra's are desperately stretching out to clutch it.

 

[p0lka]

doublepost as the forums had a hiccup, sorry.

 

[p0lka]

This needs to be spelled out for @p0lka
We could have all signs on toilets changed to read...
"Women only: You must be a biological female to enter this space"

and/or

"Men only: You must be a biological male to enter this space"

And it would not make any difference whatever to TRAs. They are ALREADY claiming that "transwomen" are biological females!!

You're still stuck on mixing sex and gender. Why would it be called "Women only: You must be a biological female to enter this space", when it can just be called 'female only' ?

 

[Ziggurat]

Also Ziggurat, you are helping the TRa's by fighting over a concept (gender) and trying to own it

I'm not fighting over it, and I'm not trying to own it. I'm trying to ignore it.

against an imagined war with the tra's

"War" is not the appropriate term, but it absolutely is a political fight. There's nothing imagined about that. There's nothing imagined about the violence they sometimes resort to either.

Do what I suggest and make it irrelevant

What you suggest will not make it irrelevant. Again, you fundamentally misunderstand the situation. Gender is not relevant because of the word "woman". Gender is relevant because the TRAs have political power, and used that political power to make it relevant. And nothing you have suggested will do anything to remove or even reduce their political power.

Get a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ clue already.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'd've thought employment nondiscrimination (absent BFOQ) would be one such area but who knows?

That's okay, though, right? I suppose that question is a subset of my more general one, which is whether you think we should continue to tolerate the sorts of things you provided as thin edge of the wedge examples.

It was an example of how the movement didn't show up full-fledged, but built bit by bit, extending each ask further and further as soon as one request was met.

Personally, I don't care how people dress, provided it's appropriate for the venue.

 

[Ziggurat]

You're still stuck on mixing sex and gender.

No, he isn't. You're stuck on thinking this is about words, when it isn't. It's about conflicting goals and political power.

 

[Emily's Cat]

ADF counsel disagrees:

"This is a problem that needs a national solution because it can't be that boys should be allowed to be female athletes in California and Massachusetts," Alliance Defending Freedom senior counsel John Bursch said to reporters outside of the Supreme Court after the session concluded.​

I think the federal courts should empower the states to fulfill their role as "laboratories of democracy" on nearly all trans issues with narrow exceptions for questions such as federal service. I also think the states should allow individual proprietors (e.g. Wi Spa, YMCA, youth leagues) to make on their own minds on whether to sort by sex at birth or by gender identity at present, restraining their own policymaking to state-supported intuitions such as colleges and secondary schools.

My rationale here is mostly that public opinion is in flux and varies significantly across time and space; devolving authority to the lowest levels practicable will allow for balancing values so as to allow satisficing the most voters and service users. Taking a principled top-down approach will be too inflexible and require constant relitigation.

I'm not sure I'm sold on empowering the states to abrogate the rights of females in their states.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm going to use the word roles. Ultimately the whole transpeople thing annoys me as they are still trying to fit into social gender roles rather than say 'i don't accept them at all'

Spot on.

It's a regressive movement. The problem is that changing words won't change the objectives of the movement.

 

[Emily's Cat]

What? So you have to suffer the massive gap and not have 30 minute cleaners? That's even worse.

edit: I'm in the UK and where I am the public toilets and libraries toilets and pubs toilets floors are cleaned constantly. What are you judging this on? Does that not happen in the US? eeeww.

Cleaning schedules vary by venue. Some like airports are pretty frequent, others might only be a few times a day. Additionally, a whole lot of venues clean seats, sinks, and counters frequently, and might spot clean spills or obvious filth on the floor, but only mop a couple of times a day.

I generally just don't put anything on the floor in bathrooms. I avoid putting things on any public floor across the board.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Also Ziggurat, you are helping the TRa's by fighting over a concept (gender) and trying to own it against an imagined war with the tra's who are also trying to own it. Do what I suggest and make it irrelevant, then it will disappear in a puff of smoke as you and the tra's are desperately stretching out to clutch it.

I think you're wrong on this. Zig isn't trying to "own" gender, nor are any of the rest of us. I'm pretty sure that our position is that gender is completely irrelevant across the board. Gender is tantamount to personality and preference, nothing more.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You're still stuck on mixing sex and gender. Why would it be called "Women only: You must be a biological female to enter this space", when it can just be called 'female only' ?

Please fill in the blanks:

A female equine is a __________
A female chicken is a ______________
A female vulpine is a ___________
A female bovine is a ___________
A female human is a ___________

 

[Aber]

You're still stuck on mixing sex and gender. Why would it be called "Women only: You must be a biological female to enter this space", when it can just be called 'female only' ?

Because

https://twitter.com/x/status/1559530487680569344

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yep, exactly that.

 

[theprestige]

I wonder how many times people are going to explain the exact same thing to p0lka, with the exact same evidence, before everyone figures out it's a waste of time.

 

[p0lka]

I wonder how many times people are going to explain the exact same thing to p0lka, with the exact same evidence, before everyone figures out it's a waste of time.

I wonder how many times you are going to post "I wonder how many times people are going to explain the exact same thing to p0lka, with the exact same evidence, before everyone figures out it's a waste of time." before you figure out it's a waste of time.

 

[d4m10n]

That's a sex issue.

All gender issues are layered atop the sex binary, AFAICT.

Yes, it involves gender, but sex is the part that actually matters there.

What would be an example of "government involving itself in gender issues" which isn't ultimately about disparate treatment based on sex?

 

[d4m10n]

I'm not sure I'm sold on empowering the states to abrogate the rights of females in their states.

Where do you think "the rights of females" come from?

Are they something we create via customs and laws and court rulings, or are they somehow independent of these social processes?

 

[theprestige]

I wonder how many times you are going to post "I wonder how many times people are going to explain the exact same thing to p0lka, with the exact same evidence, before everyone figures out it's a waste of time." before you figure out it's a waste of time.

I'm about done. My appetite for unproductive repetition is much lower than most. But while we're here: Why do you keep doing the same fringe reset over and over, even though you have nothing new to add, and even though you keep getting the same answer?

 

[Ziggurat]

All gender issues are layered atop the sex binary, AFAICT.

What would be an example of "government involving itself in gender issues" which isn't ultimately about disparate treatment based on sex?

Allowing trans-identifying males (but not cis identifying males) to compete in women's sports. That's directly a gender issue.