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Trump's promised ICE raids have begun

I love how ICE-enablers always try to handwave away my experiences. It is most certainly relevant.
Because your [sic] experience involves a distinctly different set of circumstances that don't align with the circumstances of this case.
You [sic] experienced a hit and run by someone that wasn't paying attention to the road. You never had the time to react, and by the time you could the guy was already gone. Your circumstances also did not involve law enforcement activity, nor YOU intentionally inserting yourself into a situation where you might be detained.

Maybe someone else with the time and patience will watch that but I won't.
I don't think it takes much time and patience to watch a 12 minute video. Much less skip through it to view the Minnesota law and statute citations that the video was posted for. But since you think argument by youtube is a conspiracy theorist's method, feel free to review the law:


Subd. 2.
(a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 609.06 or 609.065, the use of deadly force by a peace officer in the line of duty is justified only if an objectively reasonable officer would believe, based on the totality of the circumstances known to the officer at the time and without the benefit of hindsight, that such force is necessary:

(1) to protect the peace officer or another from death or great bodily harm, provided that the threat:

(i) can be articulated with specificity;

(ii) is reasonably likely to occur absent action by the law enforcement officer; and

(iii) must be addressed through the use of deadly force without unreasonable delay;
or

(2) to effect the arrest or capture, or prevent the escape, of a person whom the peace officer knows or has reasonable grounds to believe has committed or attempted to commit a felony and the officer reasonably believes that the person will cause death or great bodily harm to another person under the threat criteria in clause (1), items (i) to (iii), unless immediately apprehended.

The law's verbiage addresses the crux of this issue.

Again it looks like you ran to a conservative echo chamber and started grabbing arguments.
This is just an excuse being made to avoid a fallacious argument being called out. But it's fine.... at least you're honest about your intent not to read any of my citations. So I can leave the rest of my Sunday to relax on my day off instead of wasting time here.
 
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The law's verbiage addresses the crux of this issue.
It addresses the same fallacy you've been repeating ad nauseam: that the only way the officer could have known to behave differently would have been in hindsight. That's simply incorrect. As we've belabored, training is the sum of prior hindsight converted to foresight. Regulations are written out of hindsight. This officer previously exhibited poor judgment and was injured as a result. This same officer violated regulations design to keep him safe and those around him. What makes an officer reasonable is his adherence to the rules he is supposed to follow.
 
The victim committed no felony, nor was about to.

Minnesota has no stand-your-ground law. As an ordinary person, the officer had a duty to retreat. Instead the officer placed himself in a hazard. As a federal officer, the officer had additional duties according to the regulations that govern his office. As an armed officer, he had a specific duty of care to apply only the force needed.

Discusses reasonable force. The argument is that the officer used unreasonable force, specifically deadly force where not warranted.

As previously discussed, hindsight is not necessary in order to follow regulations.
 
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It addresses the same fallacy you've been repeating ad nauseam: that the only way the officer could have known to behave differently would have been in hindsight. That's simply incorrect. As we've belabored, training is the sum of prior hindsight converted to foresight. Regulations are written out of hindsight. This officer previously exhibited poor judgment and was injured as a result. This same officer violated regulations design to keep him safe and those around him. What makes an officer reasonable is his adherence to the rules he is supposed to follow.
For a none lawyer like me the answer would be, if the shot was fired through the front wind screen then he might reasonably have felt threatened. If they were fired through the side window then he was under no immediate threat. No one is arguing there were any other persons at risk other than the officer who fired the shots. The law (and no doubt Jay utah will correct me if I am wrong) does not allow the officer to continue to use lethal force once the threat to life has ceased. Once he was no longer in front of the vehicle his right to use lethal force ceased.
 
For a none lawyer like me the answer would be, if the shot was fired through the front wind screen then he might reasonably have felt threatened. If they were fired through the side window then he was under no immediate threat.
That's the law's answer too. You are severally responsible for every round that leaves your gun.

You may remember our thread on the shooting during a No Kings march in my city. Charges were finally filed against the shooter, who fired three shots. The first two were considered in self-defense. The third shot was considered reckless. And this is in a state where the law leans much more heavily in favor of armed response. As I said, Minnesota has no stand-your-ground law. You have an obligation to attempt retreat before you are authorized to use any kind of force. But as has been pointed out, the legal standard here is reasonable use of force, not self-defense.
 
'They' are training them to use vehicles as deadly weapons.

Noem: "People are using their vehicles as deadly weapons and training them on how to block streets ... All of these times you see these rioters out there doing that -- they've been trained to do that, they know they are training them to break the law."

Love the chyron: "I.C.E. UNDER ATTACK WHILE PROTECTING AMERICA."

Protection racket, maybe.
 
Because your [sic] experience involves a distinctly different set of circumstances that don't align with the circumstances of this case.
You [sic] experienced a hit and run by someone that wasn't paying attention to the road. You never had the time to react, and by the time you could the guy was already gone. Your circumstances also did not involve law enforcement activity, nor YOU intentionally inserting yourself into a situation where you might be detained.

My point is that even when at full acceleration and with minimal warning the car was not the deadly weapon that would only be stopped by using lethal force on the driver. In fact had I been armed and shot the driver I would have made things worse for others.

And for the record, these weren't hit and runs. The majority of cases I was able to dodge the vehicle or was barely bumped because, like Agent Ross, I had the capability of doing so. So I mostly gave dirty look or word at the driver and they sheepishly waited properly for the light properly. There was one exception but I won't get into that now.

I don't think it takes much time and patience to watch a 12 minute video.

Its still argument by Youtube and doesn't get much respect around here, especially when you refused to even summarize the matter. There's a time and a place for use of videos - this wasn't it.

Much less skip through it to view the Minnesota law and statute citations that the video was posted for. But since you think argument by youtube is a conspiracy theorist's method, feel free to review the law:


"Except when necessary in resisting or preventing an offense which the actor reasonably believes exposes the actor or another to great bodily harm or death"

Yeah, here's the thing: The courts long ago established that you cannot put yourself into danger and then claim self-defense. We've covered this in the thread multiple times.


"Deadly force may not be used against peace officers who have announced their presence and are performing official duties at a location where a person is committing a crime or an act that would be a crime if committed by an adult."

A car you are able to easily avoid (and shouldn't have been in front of in the first place) does not qualify as "deadly force".


Anything listed here is overruled by the DHS policies that an agent is not to place himself in danger and then use said danger as an excuse for deadly force. There are also policies that forbid shooting at a driver unless they are threatening people with things that are not the vehicle.

The law's verbiage addresses the crux of this issue.

The court cases cited in this very thread put any of your arguments to bed.

This is just an excuse being made to avoid a fallacious argument being called out. But it's fine.... at least you're honest about your intent not to read any of my citations. So I can leave the rest of my Sunday to relax on my day off instead of wasting time here.
Its not an excuse, its pure observation. I read your citation (that you couldn't be bother to list before) and some of them were pages long. I couldn't even tell which part you were citing as justification. That's laziness.

The DHS procedures and the courts have already tested your cites and found them wanting. The DHS put these policies in place precisely to prevent situations like what just happened. The courts have found officers guilty for doing less screwing up than Ross did.
 
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WELKER: Noem called it an "act of domestic terrorism." What's the evidence for that allegation?

HOMAN: If they didn't have sanctuary policies--

WELKER: To be clear, is anyone who protests ICE a domestic terrorist?

HOMAN: It's a case by case basis. If you look at the definition of terrorism, it certainly could fall within the definition

 
WELKER: Noem called it an "act of domestic terrorism." What's the evidence for that allegation?

HOMAN: If they didn't have sanctuary policies--

WELKER: To be clear, is anyone who protests ICE a domestic terrorist?

HOMAN: It's a case by case basis. If you look at the definition of terrorism, it certainly could fall within the definition

◊◊◊◊ you, icehole.

As predicted by myself, and everyone else, this corrupt administration will use any excuse to label protesters as domestic terrorists, and use that excuse to do anything they want. Including extra-judicial executions.
 
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Cops aren't allowed to step in front of moving or operating cars and then shoot the driver claiming self-defense. This has literally been established in the courts.
Which is why the Trump regime is pulling out all the stops to prevent this from being effectively prosecuted. They know they'll lose in court big time.

I am a person who used to walk through my city a whole lot. As a result I have had more than a few times where some incompetent driver managed to hit me or nearly hit me with their car.
Ditto. My city is notoriously unsafe for pedestrians due to inattentive or aggressive drivers. Three or so years ago the city police did a major crackdown on vehicle-pedestrian interactions. Anyway, I too have been "hit" or nearly hit probably half a dozen times in the manner seen in the video. My response was never to wish I could kill the driver.

But here's the thing, accelerating a car from a standstill into something single-digit feet away isn't a very good way to kill someone.
Especially with the wheels turned away from the officer, as seen in the officer's own video.

"Except when necessary in resisting or preventing an offense which the actor reasonably believes exposes the actor or another to great bodily harm or death"

Yeah, here's the thing: The courts long ago established that you cannot put yourself into danger and then claim self-defense. We've covered this in the thread multiple times.
Further, violations of operational rules are prima facie evidence that an officer's conduct is not reasonable. Thereafter the officer has to prove that his conduct was still reasonable notwithstanding the violation. And yes, my spouse has had charges dismissed on these grounds many times.

The right wing echo chambers are full of all kinds of victim blaming. No, she did not "cross a line" when she did not get out of the car as ordered. No, it's not a felony to flee from or resist a federal officer—it's only a felony when done forcibly. And no, continuing to drive the car you're already in does not make actions forcible. In any case it doesn't matter. At most her actions made her subject to arrest and prosecution. The excessive force issue is not mitigated by pointing out that she is a protester or imagining that she went to some driving school for lesbian terrorists.
 
'They' are training them to use vehicles as deadly weapons.

Noem: "People are using their vehicles as deadly weapons and training them on how to block streets ... All of these times you see these rioters out there doing that -- they've been trained to do that, they know they are training them to break the law."
Every accusation...
 

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