My responses to Michael Shermer

[Ian Osborne]

Compare this...

Hmmm....do we need to address the whole planet, whenever we say something?

I can't talk about things happening in my end of the woods?

To this...

Could someone tell shanek that the Internet is not solely an American thingie....?

I am reacting to the AMERICAN-BY-DEFAULT part. Assuming that, if nothing specific is said, then it is about the US

I live in Denmark. Chaos lives in Germany. Patricio in Chile. Luciana in Brazil. Zep, Kiless & SixSixSix in The Danish province of Australia. You, Darat and tim in the UK. Ain't that great?

Check it out, folks - it's all from this thread. Nice to see you've changed your mind, Claus...

 

[geni]

I guess the point is that for the US, part of what made the Revolution so revolutionary was this seperation of church and state.

Nope french were already trying that. The only significance of the american revolution in the short term was that it allowed the french to get one over the british

I remember as a child being so proud when studying the founding father (for all their failures, including addressing the slavery issue in negative manner) that they were such radical dudes. No king!

Already tried by both the french and the british. Also by the Romans and Greeks back in the day.

Anarchy will erupt! Seperation of church and state - those guys are GODLESS!!!

Again a french idea. Nothing new there.

I remember once being told how many flags are red white and blue, or copy the US flag in other ways. It was because at one point people respected our differences.

Umm no. France's tricolour has some influence as does the Union Jack but flags based on the US flag are pretty limited

 

[LibraryLady]

Okay, I’ve PM’ed with Diamond and I think I’ve got it.

I think Diamond has gotten the same feeling that I get when people blithely assume that the entire world is Christian, or the entire world is male, or the entire world is tall. Since all those categories exclude me, I get really annoyed. They think they are addressing me but, in fact, they are carelessly shunting me aside.

I don’t think this is Dr. Shermer’s intention, but we know where the road paved with good intentions goes. I don’t think he should have addressed his remarks specifically to Americans, but he might have made it clearer that he is talking about Americans.

I still think Shermer’s remarks are on point. However, I do see why non-Americans might take umbrage with the phrasing.

And everyone knows umbrage tastes better with tea.

 

[monoman]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Ok, lets rename it the james randi international educational foundation.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Michael Shermer has taken time out to write a commentary for the jrief, (grief). America is most probably closest to his heart (being an American). How dare he just speak for Americans.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Diamond, I've lost all hope in the skeptic wiki (sorry for all contributers). Not just because of this (re: dumbass) but because of your childish attitude to wikipedia. You child.[/FONT]

 

[kittynh]

ummm, and like WHY does France have a tricolored flag? Hello???

Even Cuba! Which is kind of ironic.

 

[PBTree]

Yea, but we do rule the world.

its all yours.

just remember what happens to those who are on top.

"there is only one way you can go from there" ???

 

[Outhere]

Perhaps Mr. Shermer felt it safest these days to stick to the country he knows best, his own. Just proves ya cain't say nothin' these days 'thout offendin' somebody. We best skedaddle home and hide under the bed.

 

[Number Six]

I can't believe someone would read Shermer's commentary and become outraged over it (other than a religious fanatic or a woo I mean). Really, that is a reach. It is a classic example of someone taking a tiny wrong and pretending as if it was a colossal mistake. There are better way of spending our time and energy than getting upset about something like that.

I was about to compare the reaction to Denise and the scholarship thing but then I realized that the JREF did a much bigger wrong with the scholarship (altnough it wasn't as bad as Denise makes it out to be) than did Shermer. Geez, I thought the Shermer piece was so good I almost pasted it on some sites I frequent with believers and now I'm reading some skeptics reacting to it as if it was Mein Kampf. I think it's an overreaction to say the least.

 

[Antiquehunter]

I have to admit that I'm scratching my head about the following sentence in Dr. Shermer's commentary:

And although I am a libertarian heterosexual who is about as unpink (in both meanings) as you can get, I believe people should have an equal opportunity to be unequal.

I'm not sure I get where he's going with this. Why is his sexuality a crucial element to this? Is he suggesting he is against same-sex marriage? Has he recently been hit on by a cute skeptical guy and feels it is important to demarcate his sexual preference in a public forum? Are most libertarians homosexual? (Alert Penn!) Any other interpretations as to what he's driving at here?

I appreciate that Dr. Shermer took time out from his busy schedule to give us a commentary - but it wasn't the best commentary ever posted to the JRef website IMHO...

-AH.

 

[kittynh]

I think Libertarians are very open to same sex marriages.

Also, legalized pot.

And I live in NH, so I should know!

 

[geni]

ummm, and like WHY does France have a tricolored flag? Hello???

There are at least 3 different theories. Other than unflunece from the US there is the idea that it shows the control of the people over the monarchy (Paris' colours - blue and red - bording monarchy's colour - white) or of course it could be that they just nicked the colours of the dutch falg and turned it through 90 degrees.

Even Cuba! Which is kind of ironic.

Not really. The campain the free cuba from the spanish was lauched from the US.

 

[Antiquehunter]

I think Libertarians are very open to same sex marriages.

Also, legalized pot.

And I live in NH, so I should know!

I'm open to the idea that I'm parsing his sentence incorrectly - but it reads strangely to me. I concur that most libertarians tend to support same sex marriage - which is why his sentence sounds weird...

 

[Jeremy]

I think he was simply taking an ideal opportunity to make a joke about communists and homosexuals.

 

[MLynn]

Diamond, after I read your initial post I re-read Dr. Shermer's Commentary. It was focused on issues in America, and I'm not sure if this was a special writing for Mr. Randi's Commentary Section or if it is an excerpt from another of his published works. Dr. Shermer writes a lot about what people believe. I can tell you that he is very much a humanitarian and cares about what people think.

If you were to send Dr. Shermer an email I think he would respond. I'm sure in his travels (and he does travel a lot), he gets lots of responses to his lectures and books.

 

[CFLarsen]

Nice to see you've changed your mind, Claus...

Note this little passage of mine:

Assuming that, if nothing specific is said, then it is about the US

Note this little passage of Shermer's:

This is America.

And one more:

It says so, right there in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights

AFAIK, only the US has those three.

Nice to see I am entirely consistent. Hm?

 

[Darat]

ummm, and like WHY does France have a tricolored flag? Hello???

Even Cuba! Which is kind of ironic.

Wanted some reflected glory from the super-power next door to it that had by then totally eclipsed the French Empire? (I.e. Great Britain.)

Since the facts aren't known I tend to give more credence to the theory that the USA flag was an evolution of the British flag (from having the colours on hand red, white and blue to make Union jacks/flags to some early USA flags incorporating the Union flag).

 

[articulett]

How is it possible for so many intelligent posters to completely miss the point of what I wrote?

I didn't criticize the US Constitution or the Separation of Church and State - quite the opposite.

I criticized the fact that Shermer appeared to be speaking entirely to Americans without regard for other countries. I sarcastically alluded that this sort of Americacentric crap is the kind of thing that is associated with poor white trash.

He could have written "Brits what is it with the bad teeth. Can't ya afford dentists?" and it wouldn't have been any more offensive.

What has Shermer said about Church/State Separation in other countries including the UK?

The actual formula is [latex]\sqrt{f*** all}[/latex]

Yes, but America has lately become more and more of a theocracy and an oligarchy...and many of us citizens feel embarrassed by it because we recognize that other countries feel forced to join in with the will of our imperialistic Jesus Freak of a dumb ass leader. Shermer is a former born again Christian who has started a grass roots effort similar to Randi's and Richard Dawkin's in scewering the sacred cow of religion. His organization, like Randi's is in America, and things have been increasing divisive--

Dawkins (Shermer's UK cohort and friend) is a major spearhead behind the notion that religions pretend to always be warring in a battle of "good" vs. "evil", but, for many of us--it's really two evils. And in Europe it's a little easier for public personalities to say so--Everyone is every war in every battle feels that God (or good) is on their side. Which might be okay, if those who didn't believe weren't killed in the name of eradicating evil. America was founded, theoretically, so that no one would be forced to believe any sort of religion--so it's Michael Shermer is exorting Americans to take back that right.

I don't think Dr. Shermer was neglecting or slamming other countries...I think he's feeling apologetic towards our own and eager to keep it from descending further into the dark ages...I know I don't want to be associated with my country's politics...and, during the current political climate, those who seek to keep church and state separate are often made to feel like they are "unpatriotic"...

 

[Ian Osborne]

Note this little passage of mine:
Note this little passage of Shermer's: [This is America]

And one more: [It says so, right there in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights] AFAIK, only the US has those three.

Nice to see I am entirely consistent. Hm?

So Shane's request for "all Americans on this forum to write their Senators" and reference to the FEC and the Senate don't stop his post implying that we're American by default, but Shermer's stating "This is America" on an international website and writing from an unqualified American perspective that doesn't even acknowledge a non-US readership does?

Once again, Shane's thread from last April is over here. If you've changed your mind, that's fair enough, though I'd be interested in what's inspired this U-turn. But to claim your posts are consistent is a nonsense.

 

[CFLarsen]

So Shane's request for "all Americans on this forum to write their Senators" and reference to the FEC and the Senate don't stop his post implying that we're American by default, but Shermer's stating "This is America" on an international website and writing from an unqualified American perspective that doesn't even acknowledge a non-US readership does?

Once again, Shane's thread from last April is over here. If you've changed your mind, that's fair enough, though I'd be interested in what's inspired this U-turn. But to claim your posts are consistent is a nonsense.

What part of "Assuming that, if nothing specific is said, then it is about the US" don't you understand?

 

[Ian Osborne]

What part of "Assuming that, if nothing specific is said, then it is about the US" don't you understand?

The bit where it applies to Shermer's "this is America" but not Shane's "all Americans on this forum".