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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

I meant to address this earlier.


Big ships have many holes in the hull. The valve that lets water in or out of those openings is a seacock. You let water in for example to cool machinery, provide for saltwater wash downs, and take on ballast. You let water out when it is gray water from culinary or sanitary systems, or ordinary runoff. And the cooling water and ballast has to go back out again when its job is done. If you combine several of these uses together in one integrated unit with a single intake or outlet, it is a seachest. You hear of ships being scuttled by opening the seacocks, and that's true. But that's a choice. Normally the inside part of the seacock is connected to other plumbing that will make use of the opening. Removing that plumbing and letting water spill into the lower spaces uncontrolled will sink the ship.


Small sailboats have drain cocks, generally on the lowest or after part of the cockpit floor. Ostensibly this is to drain water from the boat after it has been lifted out of the water. But many sailboats have underway drain cocks. These drain water from the cockpit when the boat is underway. The passing water generates suction that draws water out through the cock—no pump necessary.
I know, I was just having a go at P.J. Denyer (or possibly autocorrect) for capitalising hull, turning it into the city of Hull. Very silly of me, which shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone; I am a very silly person.

That said, I read this thread for all the far less silly, but sometimes very funny, people who contribute with their knowledge abd experience.
 
Well, they're in New Mexico; I doubt they'd appreciate being associated with Texas.
SwRI is in San Antonio, Texas. That's considered Central Texas by Texans, not West Texas. And yes, Texas is big enough for those distinctions to matter. San Antonio is not in the region of the United States considered the Southwest. But if "Northwestern" University can be in Illinois, then what's in a name?

You may be misled by the client address. Gregg Bemis lived in New Mexico. He was famous as the owner of the RMS Lusitania wreck, about which he also had certain suspicions.

Bemis submitted for analysis two metal samples from MS Estonia's forward bulkhead, the area behind the visor. Bemis alleged them to be "structural" components, despite their being only quarter-inch steel. (Bemis was not an engineer.) The report summary indicates the lab was to look for evidence of shock loading "such as might result from detonation." No loaded questions there! The lab summarily dismissed one sample as displaying no evidence consistent with shock loading. The other sample was inconclusive. We're waiting for our resident Triple-Niner to give us the benefit of that high-octane intelligence in properly interpreting the report.

In the inconclusive sample, the lab noted "twinning," a particular arrangement of steel microstructure. It also noted a relative lack of "necking," the thinning of ductile materials before fracture when the material is bent or stretched relatively slowly. Twinning can be caused by a number of things including fatigue induced by cyclical loading (i.e., when stress is applied and released repeatedly). Non-ductile fracture may occur under cryogenic temperatures (< -150 ºC) and/or under high strain rates (when material bends or stretches rapidly so that it doesn't have time to "neck"). There is no smoking gun.

The lab was unable to determine which of those occurred because the necessary telltales had been obliterated by corrosion. The lab offered to develop a different test methodology for an additional fee. We can reasonably rule out cryogenic temperature. It's quite reasonable to believe the bulkhead material was subject to cyclical loading due to its proximity to the visor and ramp structures—which were obviously repeatedly cycled during the ship's normal operation—and its location in the ship's shell plating layout, which would have been subject to cyclical loading from wave action. Quarter-inch steel is more consistent with shell plating than with structural components on a ship.

High strain rates can occur in a number of situations, including those caused in ship breakups. The failure of structure such that gravity loads pass suddenly to shell plating is such an example. A Mode III shear fracture can progress transversely across the material thickness. Or it can progress parallel to the fracture line, in which case it becomes a "running" shear fracture. Both kinds can exhibit high strain rates, but a detonation shock load will necessarily be in the transverse direction because the load is applied uniformly against the face of the material. A running shear fracture is far more common and is characteristic of overstress fractures, such as when the material is simply pulled apart quickly by being asked suddenly to bear too much load. That loading is not uniform, but rather concentrated on the fracture tip. In the running case the fracture tip fails under load; in a detonation there is effectively no fracture tip but rather a fracture edge.

In uncorroded materials, microscopic examination of the fracture edge would determine the direction of progression. Here the lab could not make that examination because the edges were corroded. Hence the lab carefully framed its findings by saying, "If cryogenic temperatures and running shear fracture can be ruled out, these could be considered evidence of shock loading." Or, translated into Triple-Niner, "If you can rule out the more common and ordinary causes, then you might be able to consider explosives."

In looking at all these reports, it's going to be important to either know or accurately guess what question the lab was asked to answer. Otherwise honest and disinterested people like poor Prof. Amdahl can be roped into supporting pseudoscience simply by being asked loaded questions. "What kind of ship would need to hit Estonia in order to cause such a hole?" obviates the task of determining whether it was any kind of ship at all. Similarly, asking a lab, "Could this kind of damage be caused by an explosion?" sidesteps the question of whether that's the best or most evident explanation for the damage. It's asking about the possibility of one explanation irrespective of any others, rather than asking what the best explanation is.

Finding evidence of shock loading "such as might result from detonation" doesn't ask for a differential diagnosis. It's like asking a coroner specifically whether a victim's laceration might have been caused by an ancient Sumerian ceremonial dagger. Well, yes, that's certainly a possibility given the generally ambiguous nature of lacerations. But if the victim was known to have been in a car crash, the laceration might best be explained by torn metal or shards of broken glass, not the exotic reason called out in the brief. Here SwRI has hinted at the right answer without violating its remit: If you have other reasons to eliminate the obvious, prosaic causes for what's observed in the metal then you might have reason to believe there were explosives involved.
 
Which you have previously explained at great length several times.
Yes, I went through this in similar detail when Vixen first alluded to the metallurgical reports. Now that she has provided them (or at least the summary) I can withdraw the accusation that she was lying about having them. But with the more detailed information in everyone's hands now, we can see that she was probably bluffing when she said that having access to the more detailed reports gave her an advantage over those of us who understand metallurgy. Even though we may possess greater understanding of metallurgy in general, Vixen supposedly had the advantage because she had more detailed information about the specific investigation. It's becoming apparent that she doesn't know what to do with the detailed information any more than she knew what to do with the summaries we previously discussed.
 
The Brandenburg report I suspect is enclosure 3 and 4 on this page: https://estoniaferrydisaster.net/enclosures.html
We discussed the Brandeburg report previously using those sources. Vixen has asserted she has more information than what is available there and that therefore she is in a better position to interpret them. I'll discuss the Brandeburg report after Vixen has given us her analysis of the report and maybe a rebuttal of my analysis above.
 
SwRI is in San Antonio, Texas. That's considered Central Texas by Texans, not West Texas. And yes, Texas is big enough for those distinctions to matter. San Antonio is not in the region of the United States considered the Southwest. But if "Northwestern" University can be in Illinois, then what's in a name?
Being myself from a city that has long billed itself as "Where the West Begins", I can report that a lot of Texans regard the Balcones Fault and its northern extrapolation as the eastern boundary of the American southwest. On road maps, that fault can be visualized as running a bit to the west of Interstate 35, which goes through San Antonio. Typical southwestern flora starts to show up a hundred miles or so west of the Balcones Fault, and that is often regarded as the boundary between central and west Texas.

So yes, San Antonio is definitely considered to be in Central Texas, but it's close enough to West Texas to become part of the Southwest by association, partly because there aren't any comparably large cities to the west of it until you get to El Paso (which is most definitely located in the American Southwest). As stated by Wikipedia:
In the 1930s and 1940s, many definitions of the Southwest included all or part of Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Arizona, California, Colorado, and Utah....By 1977, the [National Geographic] Society's definition had narrowed to only the four states of Utah, Arizona, Colorado, and New Mexico; and by 1982 the portion of the Southwest in the United States, as defined by the Society, had shrunk to Arizona and New Mexico, with the southernmost strip of Utah and Colorado, as well as the Mojave and Colorado deserts in California.
It is to be expected that a resident of Utah would favor a broader definition of the southwest over a definition that counts only Arizona and New Mexico as southwest, while rejecting a definition that would include San Antonio or other parts of central Texas. Texans tend to be more "whatever" about that; we're fine with any definition that excludes Dallas and Houston.

Having contributed my biased cultural perspective on why an outfit in San Antonio might call itself the Southwest Research Institute, I now leave you to your regularly scheduled and extraordinarily drawn-out discussion of what that institute has had to say about the conspiracy theory discussed within this thread and its many predecessors.
 
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We discussed the Brandeburg report previously using those sources. Vixen has asserted she has more information than what is available there and that therefore she is in a better position to interpret them. I'll discuss the Brandeburg report after Vixen has given us her analysis of the report and maybe a rebuttal of my analysis above.
Ah thanks - that slipped my mind.

But then I expect that Vixen will scan not the pages already available online, but rather the additional information that only she has.

And if this hasn't been up before, here is the author of the book narrating over some dive videos:

It's possible to turn on subtitles, and have them auto-translated. Not that it's worth looking at in my view...
 
So yes, San Antonio is definitely considered to be in Central Texas, but it's close enough to West Texas to become part of the Southwest by association...

It is to be expected that a resident of Utah would favor a broader definition of the southwest over a definition that counts only Arizona and New Mexico as southwest...
I'll defer to a Texan on anything having to do with Texas. We in northern Utah do not consider ourselves part of the Southwest. We are the Intermountain West (Colorado, Wyoming, Montana). Many in southern Utah would consider themselves Southwest, generally increasing in consideration as one approaches Arizona and New Mexico. I attended the University of Michigan, which bills itself as the "Champions of the West," so I suppose the debate will always rage with little agreement or reason.
 
But then I expect that Vixen will scan not the pages already available online, but rather the additional information that only she has.
Vixen's obligation to provide evidence exists insofar as she claims that possession of that evidence gives her an advantage. It doesn't matter to me whether the evidence in question comes from her or from another source that she agrees is an accurate representation of it. What she cannot do is withhold evidence she says is dispositive and thereupon claim to have a more accurate opinion. When we previously discussed the Brandeburg report, she claimed that the version in her book was more complete and that because she had access to more complete information, she could dismiss her critics' opinions as being based only on partial evidence. What we want to discover now is whether she is able to discuss the complete findings with a degree of understanding sufficient to challenge experts, or whether it was all just a bluff.

And if this hasn't been up before, here is the author of the book narrating over some dive videos:

It's possible to turn on subtitles, and have them auto-translated. Not that it's worth looking at in my view...
Indeed I watched those previously. Sven Anér is not a forensic engineer. His uninformed commentary and speculation on the widely-available dive footage has no evidentiary value.
 
Are you making fun of Swedish??? Huh?

Well, two can play that game, I'll have you know, Reformed Offlian (if that is indeed your real name); yes, it is a rather silly language, isn't it?
☺️
Swedish is just… I speak English and German and have a background in comparative linguistics and so I can make a pretty good stab at reading it, but the phonetics… utterly alien.
 
I know, I was just having a go at P.J. Denyer (or possibly autocorrect) for capitalising hull, turning it into the city of Hull. Very silly of me, which shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone; I am a very silly person.

That said, I read this thread for all the far less silly, but sometimes very funny, people who contribute with their knowledge abd experience.

Yes, I was going to "correct" Jay regarding your play on words between the hull of a ship and the UK city of Hull (technically: Kingston-upon-Hull, but usually known by its diminutive). It (Hull) is truly a depressing and nondescript cultural vacuum known for city-centre fighting and mass benefits claimants - hence the easy applicability of puns such as "to Hull and back" and "highway to Hull" :D

ETA: Its one cultural claim to fame is that for many decades the librarian at the University of Hull (a very undistinguished university) was world-renowned poet Philip Larkin.
 
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Yes, I was going to "correct" Jay regarding your play on words between the hull of a ship and the UK city of Hull (technically: Kingston-upon-Hull, but usually known by its diminutive). It (Hull) is truly a depressing and nondescript place known for city-centre fighting and mass benefits claimants - hence the easy applicability of puns such as "to Hull and back" and "highway to Hull" :D
Hull is a brilliant place, far from depressing and nondescript.
 
Hull is a brilliant place, far from depressing and nondescript.

In fairness, it's rejuvenated itself (both organically and via various grants) over the past decade or two, and does have something of a modern arts scene these days. But its wider post-war history is hardly flattering. I wouldn't want to insult a denizen of Hull though (for obvious reasons ;) )
 
Swedish is just… I speak English and German and have a background in comparative linguistics and so I can make a pretty good stab at reading it, but the phonetics… utterly alien.
I really don't get that. It's perfectly clear. Even the muppets got it spot on with the Swedish chef, both dialect and antics. The reason we take offence is only that the meatball recipe does not match any Swedes personal (and therefore best) variant.
 
I really don't get that. It's perfectly clear. Even the muppets got it spot on with the Swedish chef, both dialect and antics. The reason we take offence is only that the meatball recipe does not match any Swedes personal (and therefore best) variant.

mmmmm lingonberry jam
 
Assume standard atmospheric conditions and a window 1.5 m wide × 3 m tall. Assume the wind blows directly against the window. Compute the wind load on the window, ignoring compressible flow. For bonus points, compute the wind loading if the wind is blowing at a 45º angle. Conversely, assume the ship with that same window is submerged in seawater so that the top edge of the window is 2.5 m below the surface. Compute the hydrostatic pressure against the window, assuming the interior is dry.

If you cannot back up your cutesy bluster with numbers, we have no use for you.
Since Vixen seems to be applying all three nines to the remedial study of the mechanics of materials (or maybe the sauna door is stuck), anyone else who wants to take a crack at this is welcome to do so. The equations are scattered a few pages back in the thread—fluid drag loading and hydrostatic pressure at depth. I didn't ask for wave impact force because that's a more advanced topic for which I haven't supplied the math. If you're interested, you can adapt the ASCE wave loading model by removing the hydrostatic pressure part, for the case when the window on a ship is above the stillwater level. But you'll have to guess at the remaining parameters.

It's not important to get the very accurate right answer. In fact, you'll want to apply some simplifying approximations in order not to have to do calculus. What's important is to look at the ballparks of the numbers you get so that you can compare the loading from "gale force winds" (i.e., 44 m/s) to the simple static loading of having the ship roll or settle slightly until the window is just a bit submerged. There's an "Oh, wow!" moment at the end of the exercise that amply illustrates why we do science instead of vibes.
 
It's not important to get the very accurate right answer. In fact, you'll want to apply some simplifying approximations in order not to have to do calculus. What's important is to look at the ballparks of the numbers you get so that you can compare the loading from "gale force winds" (i.e., 44 m/s) to the simple static loading of having the ship roll or settle slightly until the window is just a bit submerged. There's an "Oh, wow!" moment at the end of the exercise that amply illustrates why we do science instead of vibes.
I'm not going to pretend to try and do the maths and calculate anything (I'm not a scientist or engineer (like Vixen) but unlike Vixen I don't pretend I am or that my secondary school "5 years of physics" makes me one), but let me take a wild guess, the static loading from the window being submerged vastly out weighs the loading from a 44m/s wind? Or am I completely off base?
 
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