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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Vixen said:
Let's recap what Margus Kurm said five years ago:
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Shall we skip a bit to save time? The thing which the ship impacted and caused the tear was that big rock outcrop on the seabed, which the divers also saw but Kurm avoided mentioning. It's hard to give him the benefit of any doubt when he's as dishonest as that. Instead he blamed a Swedish submarine, yet Sweden has no submarine which could have kept up with the Estonia. The pictures posted here showed the centre of the tear was below the car deck level but it was above the waterline.
 
JayUtah said:
Why?
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Because it's easier than actually answering the points made.
Mojo said:
Fringe reset.
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Exactly.
Vixen said:
It counters the erroneous belief that 'it is a conspiracy theory concocted by Anders Bjorkman'.
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No, but he is a major purveyor of this nonsense. And you've repeatedly voted his nonsense.
JayUtah said:
No one is claiming that Björkman is the only conspiracy theorist.
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It's been pushed by TASS and other Putinist sources for about five years.
 
JayUtah said:
Speaking specifically, calling a conspiracy theory a conspiracy theory is correct. Being able to identify a conspiracy theory, as opposed merely to alternative explanations, is not an intellectual failing. You draw your arguments from a number of conspiracy theorists.
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Not really, it is a current affairs news item for the sensible amongst us. Kurm is hardly a conspiracy theorist when he is directly involved in the reinvestigation.
 
Andy_Ross said:
Bollocks.

It was going bow first at high speed in to waves many meters high.
Of course it was pitching. There are photos of a ship of similar size pitching heavily that same night.
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It can be pitching AND being going too fast AND have poor maintenance AND an unprepared crew AND a bow visor design fault AND an 18 m/s windspeed but that does not mean they CAUSED the accident.
 
Mojo said:
OK. You claim that the JAIC said that the Estonia "floated on its superstructure", "floated on a 90° list", or even "was functioning on a 90° list". Please quote the passage or passages where they said this, and provide precise citations for them. You have so far failed to do this.
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The documents I referred you to earlier (1994, 1995). What do you think the JAIC was referring to?
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Shall we skip a bit to save time? The thing which the ship impacted and caused the tear was that big rock outcrop on the seabed, which the divers also saw but Kurm avoided mentioning. It's hard to give him the benefit of any doubt when he's as dishonest as that. Instead he blamed a Swedish submarine, yet Sweden has no submarine which could have kept up with the Estonia. The pictures posted here showed the centre of the tear was below the car deck level but it was above the waterline.
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Read what Kurm has to say again:

That is either ignorance or wishful thinking. Firstly, the side of the ferry with the hole in it has never touched the seabed. MS Estonia does not lie on its side but is rather resting on its head or one ear so to speak. The position of the hull was recorded during the dive in 1994 and if we put it on paper, everyone can see that this part of the hull and the car deck are not touching the bottom. This fact also overturns the theory according to which this part was not accessible before. It was fully accessible. The entire area of the tear was accessible, visible and filmable in 1994.
 
Vixen said:
Speaking generically, calling something you don't understand or are not interested in, a 'conspiracy theory' is the lazy man's excuse to avoid thinking. It's far more honest to say, 'Sorry, not interested' or 'Sorry I don't understand the argument'.
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People are calling what you are pushing a conspiracy theory because you are invoking a vast and unevidenced conspiracy, involving the Swedish government, the Swedish air force, the Russian government, the Russian military, the KGB, Putin, Bill Clinton, the Estonian military, the mafia, the CIA, MI6, M16, the British government, Dick Cheney, Halliburton, and possibly the Norweb Federation, to explain something that is adequately explained by the results of corrosion, metal fatigue, and a ship unsuited to the conditions being sailed at full speed into a storm, while downplaying the actual causes, and misrepresenting the JAIC report and what other people have posted in the thread.
 
Andy_Ross said:
Yes, submarines, bombs and spies are much more likely.
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A sinking with clear military precision:

  • communications down from 12:59 to 01:54
  • ship just reached international waters
  • Swedish midnight
  • Survivors feeling or hearing bangs and shudders
  • violent listing that failed to right it self after a couple of attempts
  • Third Captain having to use a hand held device to call MAYDAY (where was the Captain?), thanks to communications being down
  • EPIRBS failed to initiate
  • Swedish coastguards got their first information from a truck driver
  • Tammes' last MAYDAY 01:22 EET
  • Sillaste, Linde and True on a life raft - fully kitted out - before then
  • Sillaste and the two Estonian athletes confirm the bow ramp was closed
  • Treu and Sillaste confirm they were 'up to their knees in water' in the Engine Room deck 0.
  • Linde was seen skiving in the Empire Bar yet claimed he saw Capt Andresson going to the bridge.
  • From the moment the bow visor came loose to when the Estonia went off the radar/sonar it was a mere 35 MINUTES.
  • Communications resumed circa 12:54 Swedish end, when Helsinki Radio came through..
  • M/V Mariela and M/V Europa arrived at the scene to find nothing there.
  • The senior Estonian crew including Captain Piht mysteriously vanished.
  • US firm Rockwater went searching Piht's room for...a briefcase belonging to an Estonian/Russian arms dealer.
 
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Mojo said:
People are calling what you are pushing a conspiracy theory because you are invoking a vast and unevidenced conspiracy, involving the Swedish government, the Swedish air force, the Russian government, the Russian military, the KGB, Putin, Bill Clinton, the Estonian military, the mafia, the CIA, MI6, M16, the British government, Dick Cheney, Halliburton, and possibly the Norweb Federation, to explain something that is adequately explained by the results of corrosion, metal fatigue, and a ship unsuited to the conditions being sailed at full speed into a storm, while downplaying the actual causes, and misrepresenting the JAIC report and what other people have posted in the thread.
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Wait. It is not me that called for the reinvestigation. I am Team Estonia. I will see what they say about the outcome and if they are happy with it, then so am I.
 
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