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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Vixen said:
Don't change the subject. We are talking about the first day assumption the sole cause of the sinking was a fault in the bow visor design, knowing - as we do now, but Bildt who surely knew then, at the time - smuggling of Soviet materiel and space technology secrets were being smuggled on a passenger ferry.

Please stop stonewalling and fast forwarding to the JAIC report, already concluded by April 1995.
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The first reports from survivors told them the bow door came off. If you want to know why a ship sank in a storm and you learn from multiple witnesses that the front fell off, you'd be a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ idiot not to think that was the likely cause.

Ex-Soviet materiel had been smuggled in a Volvo. Let's say for a moment you're the Russian secret service, and you learn that another consignment was about to go. (Note that this consignment has never been confirmed to have actually happened.) Smugglers intend to carrying black market military stuff out of Estonia to the west in a Volvo. Or a truck, if you prefer, but again not confirmed to be other than imaginary. What's your plan?

If it isn't intercept the truck while it's still in Estonia and shoot all the smugglers in the back of the head, then your spy boss is going to demand to know why not.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
The first reports from survivors told them the bow door came off. If you want to know why a ship sank in a storm and you learn from multiple witnesses that the front fell off, you'd be a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ idiot not to think that was the likely cause.

Ex-Soviet materiel had been smuggled in a Volvo. Let's say for a moment you're the Russian secret service, and you learn that another consignment was about to go. (Note that this consignment has never been confirmed to have actually happened.) Smugglers intend to carrying black market military stuff out of Estonia to the west in a Volvo. Or a truck, if you prefer, but again not confirmed to be other than imaginary. What's your plan?

If it isn't intercept the truck while it's still in Estonia and shoot all the smugglers in the back of the head, then your spy boss is going to demand to know why not.
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No, because two Estonian athletes claim to have clambered down the car ramp door, and as recreated by Strathclyde Uni in their graphic. (See those two figures on the hull?)

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Jack by the hedge said:
Nothing to do with being nice. More to do with not being insane.
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Maybe the aim wasn't to sink it but to get rid of stuff. But given it happened as soon as it reached international waters suggests it was planned. If it is international waters - can't be touched, as Finland recently found out, when it prosecuted the captain of M/V Eagle charged with deliberately allowing his anchor to sever extremely expensive network cables in an act of hybrid warfare. The captain's defence lawyer successfully had the whole thing thrown out on the grounds 'it was in international waters'.

So, maybe the US and Sweden decided it would be easier to just cart the Estonian crew off and deal with them privately, as it were. Renditioned.
 
Vixen said:
... According to Meister, it seems Capt. Andresson - who was supposedly on a hotline to Einseln - might just have wanted to get rid of some cargo, which possibly might have been no problem in the past. Open the car ramp and push the truck out.
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If you want to get rid of some drugs from a ferry, at night, in heavy seas, you throw them overboard.

No sane person would dream of attempting to open the car ramp of a ferry at sea in a storm. That's cartoonishly stupid. Take a step back and ask yourself if you're feeling quite alright. I mean seriously, it's as bonkers as thinking of opening the door on a plane to chuck stuff out. Try to keep your conspiracy lunacy closer to the bounds of the credible.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
If you want to get rid of some drugs from a ferry, at night, in heavy seas, you throw them overboard.

No sane person would dream of attempting to open the car ramp of a ferry at sea in a storm. That's cartoonishly stupid. Take a step back and ask yourself if you're feeling quite alright. I mean seriously, it's as bonkers as thinking of opening the door on a plane to chuck stuff out. Try to keep your conspiracy lunacy closer to the bounds of the credible.
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It's OK, 'the man' isn't going to come round and arrest you for expressing scepticism at the absurd idea a couple of strong waves knocked the whole shebang off. Wind speed 18 m/s, vessel 14 - 18 knots. A 'storm' doesn't always mean crashing thunder and lightning and a ginornous tempest.
 
Vixen said:
Then why did JAIC have to hypothesize an additional 4,000 tonnes of water coming in through 'smashed windows' on passenger decks 4 and 5...
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Have you thought about the fact that windows on the upper decks could only admit significant amounts of water to the ship after they are submerged? And they will not be submerged until the ship has taken on a severe list and/or settled low in the water. Nobody suggested those windows broke because the wind blew a bit hard. They broke when exposed to the pounding waves they were never designed to be exposed to, after the ship lost power and steering and after it developed a severe list. The water which eventually poured in on those decks added to the water flooding down from the open car deck and accounted for the time in which the ship sank.

Only you are bewildered by this, and that's only because you have decided to be bewildered by this.
 
Vixen said:
It's OK, 'the man' isn't going to come round and arrest you for expressing scepticism at the absurd idea a couple of strong waves knocked the whole shebang off. Wind speed 18 m/s, vessel 14 - 18 knots. A 'storm' doesn't always mean crashing thunder and lightning and a ginornous tempest.
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Have you ever actually seen the sea? Big wet thing, with waves?
 
Vixen said:
No, because two Estonian athletes claim to have clambered down the car ramp door, and as recreated by Strathclyde Uni in their graphic. (See those two figures on the hull?)
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After all this time you still don't grasp that the car ramp was torn loose from its hydraulics, and with the ship on its side and the ramp hinged at the bottom it was free to swing shut again, pushed by the waves.
 
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Vixen said:
Maybe the aim wasn't to sink it but to get rid of stuff. But given it happened as soon as it reached international waters suggests it was planned. If it is international waters - can't be touched, as Finland recently found out, when it prosecuted the captain of M/V Eagle charged with deliberately allowing his anchor to sever extremely expensive network cables in an act of hybrid warfare. The captain's defence lawyer successfully had the whole thing thrown out on the grounds 'it was in international waters'.

So, maybe the US and Sweden decided it would be easier to just cart the Estonian crew off and deal with them privately, as it were. Renditioned.
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Sometimes I can believe six impossible things before breakfast.
 
Vixen said:
It's OK, 'the man' isn't going to come round and arrest you for expressing scepticism at the absurd idea a couple of strong waves knocked the whole shebang off. Wind speed 18 m/s, vessel 14 - 18 knots. A 'storm' doesn't always mean crashing thunder and lightning and a ginornous tempest.
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The "couple of strong waves" line makes you sound exactly like a troll. I thought you should know.
 
Vixen said:
Don't you think it much more likely the bow visor locks were blown off by semtex rather than a couple of strong waves..?
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Don't you think it much more likely the bow visor locks were blown off by semtex rather than dissolved by nuclear waste..?

Don't you think it much more likely the bow visor locks were blown off by semtex rather than stolen by space aliens..?

There are all sorts of things that people aren't claiming to have happened that might be less likely than that they were blown off by Semtex. But nobody, and please try to understand this, nobody is saying that the failure of the visor was caused by a couple of strong waves. Seriously, read what people have said in this thread. Read the reports that you have cited yourself. What people are saying is that the cause was poor maintenance leading to metal fatigue, which when combined with adverse weather conditions (including strong waves - remember witness saying it sounded like explosions or sledgehammers?) led to the failure.

It really isn't that hard to understand. In fact it's so easy to understand that even quite a stupid person should be able to understand is. You should have no trouble with it. If you repeat the "a couple of strong waves" or similar claim again you will clearly be lying.

Do you have any evidence (that hasn't already been posted here and debunked) that it was blown off by Semtex?
 
Vixen said:
No, because two Estonian athletes claim to have clambered down the car ramp door, and as recreated by Strathclyde Uni in their graphic . (See those two figures on the hull?)

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No, that is Anders Björkman's graphic, which @Vixen copied from Björkman's web site. Björkman created that graphic by adding the orange text and numbers and the white text blocks with red lines to a graphic created by researchers at the University of Strathclyde, but it takes a very special dedication to taradiddle for someone to continue to say it was created by Strathclyde Uni.

ETA: Added this spoiler and the link to a delightfully amusing paragraph of speculation about the etymology of taradiddle.
 
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Vixen said:
No, because two Estonian athletes claim to have clambered down the car ramp door, and as recreated by Strathclyde Uni in their graphic. (See those two figures on the hull?)

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What do you mean, "No"? What question do you think your post is answering? Is it one in your head? Because it's certainly nothing the post you've replied to.
 
Mojo said:
.....

It really isn't that hard to understand. In fact it's so easy to understand that even quite a stupid person should be able to understand is. You should have no trouble with it.
If you repeat the "a couple of strong waves" or similar claim again you will clearly be lying.
Do you have any evidence (that hasn't already been posted here and debunked) that it was blown off by Semtex?
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Once more after the 23 previous times makes a difference? ;)
 
Vixen said:
I was rather addressing the fanciful notion that 'no nice person would sink a ferry!' Maybe that wasn't even the intent. According to Meister, it seems Capt. Andresson - who was supposedly on a hotline to Einseln - might just have wanted to get rid of some cargo, which possibly might have been no problem in the past. Open the car ramp and push the truck out. We have drug smuggler Linde claiming he saw Andresson enter the bridge as he was following him up the steps right behind him, but do we believe a word a convicted criminal says, when Meister claims Linde and Treu were coached on what to say by Einseln.

Then we have the missing Second Captain. Interpol Warrant out for his arrest. All perfectly normal, i am sure!

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Then we have US company Rockwater desperately searching the room of Captain Piht and finding the briefcase of this chappie, who ran a shop (?) called 'Space Craft':

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It's as though the previous thousands of posts never existed.
 
Vixen said:
It's OK, 'the man' isn't going to come round and arrest you for expressing scepticism at the absurd idea a couple of strong waves knocked the whole shebang off. Wind speed 18 m/s, vessel 14 - 18 knots. A 'storm' doesn't always mean crashing thunder and lightning and a ginornous tempest.
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◊◊◊◊ off with this same ◊◊◊◊ time after time.


You are just taking the piss now repeating the same lies time after time evey single day.

Are you just playing a game? are you ill?

It isn't rational behaviour.
 
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