Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Ziggurat]

Go to any other gym where transpeople are not 100% known to be in the locker rooms.

There are no such gyms in California, because the law prohibits the existence of such gyms.

Or buy a set of free weights and running shoes. Or go to the gym, and leave, in your workout wear, throwing a dry t-shirt or whatever over your sweaty workout clothes.

Why can't the trans identifying males who don't feel comfortable using the men's room do this?

 

[smartcooky]

So STFU, in other words, and let TRAs point to the lack of complaints as evidence that the abolition of sex segregated spaces is no big deal? Dream on.

And its not that hard to work out why there is so little evidence. Its because there are so few complaints... and thats because making a complaint will bring consequences...

 

[Rolfe]

I think restrooms should allow users to self-police. No bigots demanding a butch looking user to show their papers with legal force, or penalties for objecting to a threatening looking person.

Wait a minute. A woman in a women's toilet who challenges someone she perceives as being male is EXACTLY what self-policing is. In your first sentence you say users should self-police, and in your second sentence you say that should not be allowed.

 

[Rolfe]

I don't see what would be hard about treating someone who went through gender transition surgeries to be afforded recognition.

You keep saying this, and I keep asking you the same question, which you keep ignoring.

Just suppose we had your ideal world where men who have been castrated and had their penis turned inside out to form a wound they have to shove a dildo up every day, whose only purpose is to allow other men to penetrate it, were given "recognition", presumably recognition that men who simply put on a dress and a bad wig are not entitled to. Also suppose for the moment we ignore the half-dozen or so other objections to this situation.

So we have two groups of men. Outwardly they look the same. No possible way to tell without demanding a "genital inspetion" which man is in which group. But one group has special privileges the other group doesn't have.

How do we actually organise this? How does anyone know that man A has had his bits lopped off and so is to be granted these privileges, while man B has not, and should be turned away when he attempts to claim them? Serious question.

 

[Thermal]

Everyone else is keeping their heads down.

Really? You gots any of that thar evidence of your claim? Or can we just go ahead and assume you are making ◊◊◊◊ up with utter comtempt for the truth? You have lots of company ITT, if so.

There is a lot of repetition of this assault record Freeman/Black is alleged, but I can't find anything on it. Kind of weird, innit? Tish herself makes the claim on her insta:

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

but as we can see, there's not a word about assault. Its a failure to comply relating to drug charges. Here's the page she lifted her claim from, to save you some time:

Grant Freeman | Lebanon Correctional | Ohio Inmates & Offenders

See the correctional supervision record for Grant Freeman, who is or was recently under the supervision of the department of corrections in the state of Ohio. The following record for Grant Freeman was recently collected from the state department of corrections website of Ohio, of those serving...

www.insideprison.com

Another is that Freeman was allegedly sentenced in 2022 in Ohio, and his wife divorced him. Then he lit out to California, where he started his transition thing a couple years later. So are you still pretty sure that the ex wife even knows that he changed his name from halfway across the country and years later? You pretty sure about that?

And before you say it, I'm not defending this guy. But I can see this story is narrative-propelled, not fact propelled, and you in particular are sucking it up unquestioningly. Pretty sappy of you, come to that. But perhaps I'm misjudging you, and you actually have robust evidence that I missed? I will happily eat crow if that's the case. Will you do so if we see you are spreading lies like a twitter twat?

I'll get back to you on the rest. But I don't want you doing that snippity-do-dah thing and ignoring these issues. They reflect directly on your integrity.

eta: looking around, most people repeating the assault story credit the source as the NY Post. The post makes the claim with no evidence, but they link the above insta post with the Failure to Comply charge. Freeman/Black also says he was fully clothed at the time of the confrontation, as he was during the screaming thing in the hall, which happened immediately after he was supposed to be naked (see her claims, which change a bit)

 

[Thermal]

So am I, whether they've had surgery or not, outside sex segregated spaces, services etc. Because sincerely believing that reality can be changed by the thoughts in their head does not make it true.

Kind of a strange thing to say, isn't it? I don't think they believe they are 'changing reality', any more than getting Botox does.

So STFU, in other words, and let TRAs point to the lack of complaints as evidence that the abolition of sex segregated spaces is no big deal? Dream on.

I... don't understand this. She can do whatever she wants. Fight, lobby, protest, boycott, whatever. You asked what were her alternatives, besides getting naked in front of a man she had every reason to expect to be present. If she actually objected, maybe she wouldn't have electively done so, unless she was looking for a little attention herself?

 

[Thermal]

There are no such gyms in California, because the law prohibits the existence of such gyms.

You forgot to read again. I said gyms where they were not 100% certain there was a transwoman using. That means active knowledge of a transwoman actively using it. Did you know there are gyms where you don't know with certainty if a transwoman is actively attending it? 'S true. There is no law prohibiting the existence of a gym where you don't know if there is a transwoman using it with certainty, and it is amazingly stupid to assert so.

Why can't the trans identifying males who don't feel comfortable using the men's room do this?

They can. Why do you ask?

 

[Thermal]

Wait a minute. A woman in a women's toilet who challenges someone she perceives as being male is EXACTLY what self-policing is. In your first sentence you say users should self-police, and in your second sentence you say that should not be allowed.

Read harder. The second sentence says you can self police, but not police police. Self-policing means doing it yourself, not have a cop do it for you. It's right there in the name.

 

[Thermal]

You keep saying this, and I keep asking you the same question, which you keep ignoring.

Just suppose we had your ideal world where men who have been castrated and had their penis turned inside out to form a wound they have to shove a dildo up every day, whose only purpose is to allow other men to penetrate it, were given "recognition", presumably recognition that men who simply put on a dress and a bad wig are not entitled to. Also suppose for the moment we ignore the half-dozen or so other objections to this situation.

So we have two groups of men. Outwardly they look the same. No possible way to tell without demanding a "genital inspetion" which man is in which group. But one group has special privileges the other group doesn't have.

How do we actually organise this? How does anyone know that man A has had his bits lopped off and so is to be granted these privileges, while man B has not, and should be turned away when he attempts to claim them? Serious question.

Could you tell me your primary language, and I'll try to communicate in that? You are unduly wrestling with understanding the dozens of times I've answered in English. Do the words 'Penis Police' ring a bell, coupled with 'you're not the'?

You don't have to 'tell' anything, unless you are removing by force. Which you are not doing. Your question is meaningless.

 

[Tomboy]

As I've said... repeatedly... I think restrooms should allow users to self-police. No bigots demanding a butch looking user to show their papers with legal force, or penalties for objecting to a threatening looking person.

Read harder. The second sentence says you can self police, but not police police. Self-policing means doing it yourself, not have a cop do it for you. It's right there in the name.

Do the words 'Penis Police' ring a bell, coupled with 'you're not the'?

You don't have to 'tell' anything, unless you are removing by force. Which you are not doing. Your question is meaningless.

You think restrooms should allow users to self police, but without force of law, and without doing it one's self? How do you propose your version of self policing works, then?

 

[Pixel42]

Kind of a strange thing to say, isn't it? I don't think they believe they are 'changing reality', any more than getting Botox does.

There are several on the other forum I belong to who will assure you that they are women, they are female. There are plenty of men who agree with them - we had one in this thread a few days ago, remember? "Transwomen are women. End of".

Their whole argument is that they are not asking for the abolition of sex segregation - they themselves point blank refuse to share facilities with males, remember? - but that the female only spaces are the ones they should be allowed to use because they are female. How can you possibly be unaware of this, after participating in this thread for so long?

I... don't understand this.

You don't understand very much at all about this issue, that has been clear for some time.

She can do whatever she wants. Fight, lobby, protest, boycott, whatever. You asked what were her alternatives, besides getting naked in front of a man she had every reason to expect to be present. If she actually objected, maybe she wouldn't have electively done so, unless she was looking for a little attention herself?

I thought I'd made it clear that I was specifically asking for an alternative that didn't require her to implicitly accept that this particular male was entitled to use female sex segregated spaces, thereby handing ammunition to TRAs (and people like you) who point to males using female spaces and getting away with it as evidence that it's not a problem.

Remember that swimming pool that allowed a trans identifying man to attend their women only sessions, and then announced a few weeks later that they were stopping them because of lack of interest without a single complaint having been received? Women's natural instinct when confronted by stroppy, entitled males who are bigger and stronger than they are is to retreat. Women like this one and Sandie Peggie are the exception. The ones who are self excluding are cheering them on.

 

[smartcooky]

There are several on the other forum I belong to who will assure you that they are women, they are female. There are plenty of men who agree with them - we had one in this thread a few days ago, remember? "Transwomen are women. End of".

Indeed, and not only that. His position was the topic was not even open for discussion. No-one must question anything the Holy Cult of Transgender Ideology holds dear, and ANYONE who does question it even in the slightest is a tranny-bashing bigot.

We see this attitude and behaviour right through the TRA and the cult it shills for.

Remember that swimming pool that allowed a trans identifying man to attend their women only sessions, and then announced a few weeks later that they were stopping them because of lack of interest without a single complaint having been received? Women's natural instinct when confronted by stroppy, entitled males who are bigger and stronger than they are is to retreat. Women like this one and Sandie Peggie are the exception. The ones who are self excluding are cheering them on.

He also seems to have conveniently forgotten the Will "Lia" Thomas affair.
At the time it was all happening, there had been no complaints at all (that the general public knew about at least) from ANY of the women who he shared facilities with. People like @Thermal saw this as a gotcha... "You gots any of that thar evidence of your claim?"... 'No, see? No complaints so its not happening... nothing to see here'.

Its only AFTER the ◊◊◊◊ hit the fan, that we find out WHY there were no complaints...
- the girls were warned not to complain to the UPenn faculty.
- they were threatened with "diversity training" (i.e. forced indoctrination in the Holy Cult of Transgender Ideology) if they dared complain.
- if they went public with any complaints, the punishment would be severe and final. Loss of places in the team, and termination of scholarships.

When Riley Gaines and other affected swimmers at UPenn (Tylor Mathieu, Grace Estabrook, Ellen Holmquist, Margot Kaczorowski and Monika Burzynska) finally did make their complaints known, they faced a barage of online abuse and personal death threats for doing so.

And people like @Thermal wonder why there's no evidence of transgender identified males causing problems in women's single-sex spaces

 

[Pixel42]

They can. Why do you ask?

Because they flatly refuse to do so, and consider the very suggestion transphobia, because they sincerely believe that their sex is determined by the thoughts in their head.

I'm beginning to think you really have completely missed the whole point of this dispute. Try taking another look at the thread title.

This is not an argument about whether sex segregated spaces, services, sports leagues etc should exist. There are people who question the need for them, but none of them are on either side of this dispute. Both sides are in completely agreement that they should exist. The only point in contention is whether people who sincerely believe they are in the wrong sexed body should use the ones for their actual sex, or the ones for the sex that they believe they are in their heads. TRAs are adamant it should be the latter, which is why they point blank refuse to use the former (or even unisex options). All of the other ways in which the lives of women differ from the lives of men are closed to them, because they are a direct consequence of the actual biological differences between males and females, so this is understandable. Unfortunately for their argument the only justification for the continued existence of sex segregation is those same biological differences, which is why most women are equally adamant it should be the former.

 

[Rolfe]

Really? You gots any of that thar evidence of your claim? Or can we just go ahead and assume you are making ◊◊◊◊ up with utter comtempt for the truth? You have lots of company ITT, if so.

There is a lot of repetition of this assault record Freeman/Black is alleged, but I can't find anything on it. Kind of weird, innit? Tish herself makes the claim on her insta:

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

but as we can see, there's not a word about assault. Its a failure to comply relating to drug charges. Here's the page she lifted her claim from, to save you some time:

Grant Freeman | Lebanon Correctional | Ohio Inmates & Offenders

See the correctional supervision record for Grant Freeman, who is or was recently under the supervision of the department of corrections in the state of Ohio. The following record for Grant Freeman was recently collected from the state department of corrections website of Ohio, of those serving...

www.insideprison.com

Another is that Freeman was allegedly sentenced in 2022 in Ohio, and his wife divorced him. Then he lit out to California, where he started his transition thing a couple years later. So are you still pretty sure that the ex wife even knows that he changed his name from halfway across the country and years later? You pretty sure about that?

And before you say it, I'm not defending this guy. But I can see this story is narrative-propelled, not fact propelled, and you in particular are sucking it up unquestioningly. Pretty sappy of you, come to that. But perhaps I'm misjudging you, and you actually have robust evidence that I missed? I will happily eat crow if that's the case. Will you do so if we see you are spreading lies like a twitter twat?

I'll get back to you on the rest. But I don't want you doing that snippity-do-dah thing and ignoring these issues. They reflect directly on your integrity.

eta: looking around, most people repeating the assault story credit the source as the NY Post. The post makes the claim with no evidence, but they link the above insta post with the Failure to Comply charge. Freeman/Black also says he was fully clothed at the time of the confrontation, as he was during the screaming thing in the hall, which happened immediately after he was supposed to be naked (see her claims, which change a bit)

Here we go again. Thermal doesn't want to believe something happened, so he writes his own version, accuses everyone else of deliberate lying, and demands evidence that's not practically attainable.

 

[Rolfe]

Read harder. The second sentence says you can self police, but not police police. Self-policing means doing it yourself, not have a cop do it for you. It's right there in the name.

So you mean a woman  can challenge someone she believes to be a man, even though you said that wasn't allowed. But then what? The man refuses to leave. She has no further recourse. He can do what he likes.

 

[smartcooky]

So you mean a woman  can challenge someone she believes to be a man, even though you said that wasn't allowed. But then what? The man refuses to leave. She has no further recourse. He can do what he likes.

Well, she always has "The Linehan Strategy".... I suppose

 

[Matthew Best]

They were married, and apparently once he threw a punch that broke her jaw. Passionate people do things like that.

My mind is literally boggled by this sentence.

 

[smartcooky]

My mind is literally boggled by this sentence.

Mine too, but given his apparent callous disregard for women's concerns, its not entirely unexpected!

 

[Rolfe]

Could you tell me your primary language, and I'll try to communicate in that? You are unduly wrestling with understanding the dozens of times I've answered in English. Do the words 'Penis Police' ring a bell, coupled with 'you're not the'?

You don't have to 'tell' anything, unless you are removing by force. Which you are not doing. Your question is meaningless.

Tha Gàidhlig agam. ’S e cànan mo theaghlaich agus mo shinnsearan a th’ ann. Chan eil mi fileanta a-nis, ach ma tha thu a’ smaoineachadh gum bi e nas fheàrr, 's urrainn dhuinn còmhradh a dhèanamh sa chànan sin. Ach, leis nach eil ciall sam bith anns na tha thu ag ràdh sa Bheurla no ann an cànan sam bith eile, chan eil mi a’ smaoineachadh gun soirbhich leis an seo.

Tha thu ag ràdh gum bu chòir cead a bhith aig cuid de fhireannaich goireasan boireann a chleachdadh leis gu bheil iad airidh air seo, agus an uairsin tha thu ag ràdh nach fhaod sinn fireannach sam bith a dhiùltadh. Dèan suas d’ inntinn. Ma leigeas tu le duine sam bith aig nach eil bod a dhol a-steach do ghoireasan boireannaich, agus an uairsin ma dhearbhas tu nach eil poileis bhoid ann, dè an dòigh anns a bheil sin eadar-dhealaichte bho bhith a’ leigeil le fireannach sam bith a dhol a-steach?

 

[Ziggurat]

They can. Why do you ask?

Because the burden should be on him to do that, not her.