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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

Trump rolling out the Red Carpet to Saudi Arabia, breaking the agreement not to give Arab Countries weapons on par with what it gives Israel.
The Saudis pledge to invest a trillion in the US
Netanyahu seeks a 20 year commitment for billions in free weapons from the US each year.

Can someone explain what the US gets out of this relationship?
 
Is what kind of state Palestine would be really the point? I deeply dislike theocracies, all theocracies - jewish, christian, islamic, hindu, all of them - but that doesn't mean that I would support genocide in order to destroy such states.
 
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NatalieSalat said:
Can you name a successlul Arab-Islamic world secular liberal democracy?
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Don't dodge the question. Also, don't move the goalposts. You said "failed state" but now you're saying "secular liberal democracy". There can exist non-failed states that aren't secular liberal democracies. I don't think anyone would say that the United Arab Emirates is a failed state, but nor is it a secular liberal democracy. Saudi Arabia certainly isn't a failed state. Iran is not a failed state, though technically it is Persian and not Arab, I guess.

lionking said:
Which Arab state would you choose to live in?
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If forced, I think I could live in the UAE. I wouldn't voluntarily choose to - I much prefer living where I am - but if a choice were forced upon me.
 
" The argument will be that Hamas was using civilians as human shields" depends on completely inverting the concept of "human shield".

Hint: it's not "the bad guy was holding hostages, so naturally we had to kill them and the hostages".
 
As I was saying earlier:

"Wiping out these maniacs from the face of the earth seems to be a better idea."

and Post #3657 where I noted that "IDF (and other Israeli Security Services) will make efforts to seek out and destroy enemies, regardless of their location."

Which is expressed so very well by today's elimination of Hezbollah's Chief of Staff Haytham Ali Tabataba'i.

www.israelnationalnews.com

IDF Confirms: Hezbollah military chief Haytham Ali Tabataba'i eliminated in Beirut strike

IDF confirms that Hezbollah's Chief of Staff Haytham Ali Tabataba'i was eliminated in a Sunday afternoon airstrike on Beirut's Dahieh suburb.
www.israelnationalnews.com www.israelnationalnews.com
 
angrysoba said:
This is footage showing devastation of Gaza (buildings but no gore). The argument will be that Hamas was using civilians as human shields, but it makes little sense to me that Hamas would deliberately use every single building in Gaza as a human shield.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1992016872162922933
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The argument is that the IDF was moving a few divisions through these neighborhoods, while facing an enemy that wanted to bog down and ambush the Israelis in alleys and narrow roads. The IDF simply created their own passages and their own ways through these dangerous environs, with combat engineers blasting through walls and dropping buildings in their path.

Believe me when I tell you that for years to come, military leaders worldwide will study how the IDF maneuvered in urban combat, with minimal losses to its soldiers and tens of thousands of losses to the enemy.

Textbooks on the subject are going to be published based on the experience of Israel's commanders in Gaza.
Lots and lots of words will be written describing their strategy.

The ceasefire is holding. Barely.
 
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webfusion said:
As I was saying earlier:

"Wiping out these maniacs from the face of the earth seems to be a better idea."
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The problem is that you are de facto defining every man, woman, and child in Gaza as a "maniac".

webfusion said:
Believe me when I tell you that for years to come, military leaders worldwide will study how the IDF maneuvered in urban combat, with minimal losses to its soldiers and tens of thousands of losses to the enemy.
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Blasting buildings to rubble in order to press forward isn't exactly subtle, is it, though? What are they going to study in future military tactics classes? "Building in way? Blast it to dust. Building not in way any more." Oh, that building is full of civilians? Doesn't matter. Blast it to dust. It's a hospital? Blast it to dust. It's an aid station? Blast it to dust.

Not exactly Clausewitz, is it?

And by the way, don't think I'm going to ignore your "tens of thousands of losses to the enemy" statement. We have demonstrated previously that the vast majority of those losses have not been enemy combatants. The IDF takes the idea of "collateral damage" and says "please sir can I have some more?"

webfusion said:
The ceasefire is holding. Barely.
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It is not. Israel has never had any intention of holding to a ceasefire. Not when there are more civilians to kill.

www.theguardian.com

Gaza hospitals running out of supplies as Israeli airstrikes continue, medics say

‘Severe lack’ in territory where Israeli strikes have killed more than 50 people and injured over 100 in recent days
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
This is from that notable source of Hamas propaganda, B'Tselem:


An examination of Israel’s policy in the Gaza Strip and its horrific outcomes, together with statements by senior Israeli politicians and military commanders about the goals of the attack, leads to the unequivocal conclusion that Israel is taking coordinated, deliberate action to destroy Palestinian society in the Gaza Strip. In other words: Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. 
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More like mess with bull, get gored, stamped, trampled, eviscerated, blown to pieces, your wife blown to pieces, your children buried under tons of falling concrete, your neighbours shot while queueing for food, the entire neighbourhood flattened, your farms destroyed, your water sources poisoned, your hospitals and schools destroyed and your entire culture and way of life wiped from the face of the earth.
 
Sounds like the HAMAS maybe shouldn't have attacked and killed Israelis and held hostages?
Bad idea.

Gaza is about to face a point of reckoning.
The sooner the better.
 
webfusion said:
Sounds like the HAMAS maybe shouldn't have attacked and killed Israelis and held hostages?
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Sounds like Israel maybe shouldn't have flattened the buildings, destroyed the hospitals, killed men, women and children with bombs and bullets and starvation, destroyed farms and water sources, and murdered journalists and aid workers in a collective punishment that was massively disproportionate to the crime.
 
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