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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Axxman300 said:
...And why did the company weld the bow visor of that ship shut after the Estonia sank? Again, you site a vessel whose total history undermines your claims.
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Because if you remember correctly, Swedish PM Carl Bildt decided on day one it was the bow visor. IMV there was a definite panic - rightly or wrongly - about possible cargo on board (given there had twice been CIA procured Russian secrets carried on the same ferry, earlier that same month). So yes, enter Dick Cheney in cohoots with US - Korea veteran Einseln and we see a massive classified operation put in place. Having successfully disappeared the rogue Estonian crew and second captain, that's where Cheney and Rumsfeld got their idea from of Rendition Campaigns and Guantanamo Bay to deal with post-9/11 panic.
 
Vixen said:
Yes, I get that the ship was crippled when the bow visor was ripped off but we are none the wiser as to why. But as you say, it has been discussed to death already.
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None wiser? I'm no engineer, but I am familiar with metal fatigue. I also have first hand experience abusing equipment until it breaks. And taking the Estonia out in that weather was abuse.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
No one is having a meltdown, we're just pointing out that you are wrong about it being cockney slang and you're throwing a tantrum insisting that you're right.

Which sums up this entire thread come to think of it.
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The source of it is still less odd than her bizarre idea that it means "Understand" or "Do you speak English?"
 
Axxman300 said:
None wiser? I'm no engineer, but I am familiar with metal fatigue.
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I am an engineer, and I'm also familiar with metal fatigue. From what we can understand about the mechanical state of the locks, the poor fit suggests a greatly increased risk of fatigue. Further, the metallurgical data that some wish to explain by explosives is equally explained by metal fatigue. To suppose we are "none the wiser" as to the causes of failure in the bow visor is pure fingers-in-ears denialism.

Axxman300 said:
I also have first hand experience abusing equipment until it breaks. And taking the Estonia out in that weather was abuse.
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Yes.
 
Vixen said:
My theory is it's a patische of the Spanish for 'Do you know?' or something similar, which cockney ears heard as Kemo Sabe from off the television at the time.
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Gibberish.

If it is cockney slang, find an example of it being used. No, your possibly apocryphal man down the pub who was from all over the place doesn't count. Find a real example of it being used as slang by cockneys.

Which of course you won't because it isn't now nor has it ever been cockney slang. You're simply wrong about it.
 
Vixen said:
Because if you remember correctly, Swedish PM Carl Bildt decided on day one it was the bow visor.
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No, that is incorrect. I showed you that you are wrong when you claimed that. Actually several times. See here: https://www1.internationalskeptics....nia-case-reopened-part-v.356236/post-13732192

Vixen said:
IMV there was a definite panic - rightly or wrongly - about possible cargo on board (given there had twice been CIA procured Russian secrets carried on the same ferry, earlier that same month).
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No, there are no documents about CIA being involved. We have covered this before. Here for example: https://www1.internationalskeptics....-case-re-opened-part-iii.354857/post-13673298
 
Vixen said:
Because if you remember correctly, Swedish PM Carl Bildt decided on day one it was the bow visor.
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That's what he was told by his experts at the time, and he was correct. You do know Sweden has a navy, right? Sweden also builds ships.

Also, Carl was just out here in LA at a Rand Corporation meeting. He works tirelessly toward world peace, not sure what your problem with the man is.

Vixen said:
IMV there was a definite panic
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Your view is based on delusional paranoia.

Vixen said:
about possible cargo on board (given there had twice been CIA procured Russian secrets carried on the same ferry, earlier that same month)
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Why would Sweden worry about a CIA operation on an Estonia-flagged ship? It's not their problem. How do you know the other ferries that night weren't also carrying CIA smugglers? Most important is the fact that the cargo didn't knock the bow visor off the ship.

Vixen said:
So yes, enter Dick Cheney in cohoots with US - Korea veteran Einseln and we see a massive classified operation put in place.
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Really? The same guy who lacked ANY intelligence background, dodged the Vietnam draft, and would ignore the CIA (the same CIA) assessment that Iraq likely didn't have WMDs in order to initiate an invasion somehow masterminded a covert operation...on the fly...before he was head of a company that owned another company that owned the diving company?

Do you know how often Sweden tells the US to F-off?

More importantly is the fact that even if there had been a CIA smuggling operation using the Estonia on that night it would have been impossible to prove at the time. Even today the claims are not supported by documentation.

Vixen said:
Having successfully disappeared the rogue Estonian crew and second captain, that's where Cheney and Rumsfeld got their idea from of Rendition Campaigns and Guantanamo Bay to deal with post-9/11 panic.
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You are insane.

In 1994 the CIA had zero capacity to conduct kinetic operations such as kidnapping. That branch had been shut down after Vietnam. And of all the things to risk prison over, the sinking of a ferry is not on the list.

And why the CIA? Honest to God, nobody at Langley gave a crap about the MS Estonia. Why no love for SAPO? Why couldn't MI-6 put a guy in a waterproof tuxedo on the car deck with a Lotus Esprit that turns into a submarine? Why pass on the EFIS? Why not the BND? Why not drag the French DGSE into the game (I always suspect the French, until I don't)? Maybe the Fins sent Supo on a mission. What about the Dutch MIVD?

Why the CIA? I ask because EVERYONE was smuggling gear out of Russia at the time.

If you think our actions on rendition stem from the accidental sinking of an Estonian ferry you are truly a moron.
 
Axxman300 said:
That's what he was told by his experts at the time, and he was correct. You do know Sweden has a navy, right? Sweden also builds ships.

Also, Carl was just out here in LA at a Rand Corporation meeting. He works tirelessly toward world peace, not sure what your problem with the man is.


Your view is based on delusional paranoia.


Why would Sweden worry about a CIA operation on an Estonia-flagged ship? It's not their problem. How do you know the other ferries that night weren't also carrying CIA smugglers? Most important is the fact that the cargo didn't knock the bow visor off the ship.


Really? The same guy who lacked ANY intelligence background, dodged the Vietnam draft, and would ignore the CIA (the same CIA) assessment that Iraq likely didn't have WMDs in order to initiate an invasion somehow masterminded a covert operation...on the fly...before he was head of a company that owned another company that owned the diving company?

Do you know how often Sweden tells the US to F-off?

More importantly is the fact that even if there had been a CIA smuggling operation using the Estonia on that night it would have been impossible to prove at the time. Even today the claims are not supported by documentation.


You are insane.

In 1994 the CIA had zero capacity to conduct kinetic operations such as kidnapping. That branch had been shut down after Vietnam. And of all the things to risk prison over, the sinking of a ferry is not on the list.

And why the CIA? Honest to God, nobody at Langley gave a crap about the MS Estonia. Why no love for SAPO? Why couldn't MI-6 put a guy in a waterproof tuxedo on the car deck with a Lotus Esprit that turns into a submarine? Why pass on the EFIS? Why not the BND? Why not drag the French DGSE into the game (I always suspect the French, until I don't)? Maybe the Fins sent Supo on a mission. What about the Dutch MIVD?

Why the CIA? I ask because EVERYONE was smuggling gear out of Russia at the time.

If you think our actions on rendition stem from the accidental sinking of an Estonian ferry you are truly a moron.
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This has gone way past 'JAQing off' and into full on 'conspiracy nutcase' territory....
 
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