Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

smartcooky said:
Sounds about right to me!
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OK, let's try it.

The other day I was out with some friends, and I happened to mention that I thought Nazism was bad. A guy came up to us and said "Oh, you think Nazism is bad?"
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The other day I was out with some friends, and I happened to mention that I thought transgender ideology was bad. A guy came up to us and said "Oh, you think transgender ideology is bad?"

"Yes," I replied, "I do." And I turned back to my friends, intending to continue having a good evening.

"I'm proud to be a Nazi. I bet you don't even understand what Nazism is all about," he said, puffing out his chest.
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"I'm proud to be a transgender activist. I bet you don't even understand what transgender ideology is all about," he said, puffing out his chest.

"I think I have a good enough idea," I replied.

"Oh?" He leaped on it like a kitten on a toy mouse. "Then tell me the Three Core Tenets of Nazism."
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"Oh?" He leaped on it like a kitten on a toy mouse. "Then tell me the Three Core Tenets of transgender ideology"

"I'm not sure I care to get into details with you."

"You don't even know, do you?" he asked with a smug self-satisfied smile. "How can you say transgender ideology is bad when you don't know the Three Core Tenets?"

"I'm not even sure I care what the Three Core Tenets are." I replied. "Nazism is bad. You know, there was that whole Holocaust thing?"
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"I'm not even sure I care what the Three Core Tenets are." I replied. "Transgender ideology is bad. You know, forcing women (including victims of male sexual and physical violence) to share their previously female only spaces, services and sports leagues with any strange male who wants to enter them, without their consent? Because the feelings of a tiny percentage of males were deemed more important than, and therefore to be given priority over, the feelings of any and all females?"

"The Holocaust was totally misunderstood!" he said with a dismissive wave of his hand. "Come into my Nazi Bar and we can discuss like civilised people why Nazism is not as bad as you think."
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"Those inevitable consequences are totally misunderstood!" he said with a dismissive wave of his hand. "Come into my Trans Bar and we can discuss like civilised people why Transgender Ideology is not as bad as you think."

"I don't think I will," I said.

"Why, are you scared that you'll be proved wrong?"

"Uh... not really..."

"Then come on into the Nazi Bar and we can talk about it, politely and with an avalanche of references to Nazi literature to prove that what we are saying is true."
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"Then come on into the Trans Bar and we can talk about it, politely and with an avalanche of references to transgender literature to prove that what we are saying is true."

"No."

"If you won't debate the fundamentals of Nazi ideology with me in my Nazi Bar," he said with just a touch of condescension, "then you're an intellectual coward."

"Discuss the fundamentals of Nazism with you, a professed proud Nazi in the safe and supporting environment of your Nazi Bar, with all your Nazi friends watching and listening, or have Nazis call me an intellectual coward? You know what? You can call me what you like. I'm not going to your Nazi Bar. This conversation is over."

And I turned my back on him. Because that's what you do with Nazis.
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This would be where the analogy breaks down, of course, because this entire forum (apart from this thread) is the equivalent of the Transgender Bar, and any attempt by those opposed to the ideology to enter it and make their case is forbidden, and sanctioned by the mods if attempted.
 
A couple of things Arth might do well to read, but he won't of course.



I never cease to be amazed by some men's tender solicitousness for the well-being of men who want to gate-crash women's spaces, contrasted with their complete indifference, nay, hostility, to the well-being of the women impacted. Women are pleading and begging, and sharing terrible stories of abuse and trauma, to try to get men to understand how the presence of men in their single-sex spaces impacts them. And it's all ignored in favour of the crocodile tears of the LARPing men.

Compared to Arth's self-satisfied self-righteousness, people like Thermal who are actually prepared to engage (albeit dishonestly) are almost a breath of fresh air.
 
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@arthwollipot: I know that you are very passionate about inclusivity and being open minded with people. Kudos to you for that, and I agree. But what do you say to the arguments of Pixel42 and Emily's Cat, that biological males are frightening in a female's intimate space? I've still got a problem with saying the comfort of a trans woman outweighs the comfort of a natal woman.
 
Rolfe said:
A couple of things Arth might do well to read, but he won't of course.


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TRA allies will never read anything that might expose their self-righteous indigation at the thought women standing up for their rights.
Rolfe said:
Compared to Arth's self-satisfied self-righteousness, people like Thermal who are actually prepared to engage (albeit dishonestly) are almost a breath of fresh air.
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💣💥
 
arthwollipot said:
All entirely predictable responses.

The Nazi is the Terf. The Nazi Bar is this thread.

View attachment 66041
Source: Assigned Male Comics
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TERFed that for you.... (TERF: These Edits Reflect Facts)
A-Terf-rebuts.png
 
Thermal said:
@arthwollipot: I know that you are very passionate about inclusivity and being open minded with people. Kudos to you for that, and I agree. But what do you say to the arguments of Pixel42 and Emily's Cat, that biological males are frightening in a female's intimate space? I've still got a problem with saying the comfort of a trans woman outweighs the comfort of a natal woman.
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Do you really expect him to come back to the thread, let alone respond to this? I'm amazed he returned at all, and not remotely surprised he completely ignored every point made in response to his post. Because the only way he can maintain his delusion of moral superiority is to never examine the position and memes he is parroting.

The thing is, I can absolutely understand where he's coming from. If I had never stopped and fully thought it through, I'd still be in that place myself.

A while back I read an article about the experiences of men with gender dysphoria who were attempting to live their lives as women, in a place where the TRAs had got every concession they wanted. They were heartbreaking, and I particularly felt for one poor man who was working in a Museum. Most of the visitors treated him politely, though it was always clear to him that they knew he was male, but what he absolutely dreaded were school visits. Because young kids didn't understand how they were supposed to react to him, so they reacted honestly. And by their reactions he understood that, however hard he tried to dress and act like a woman, it would never be enough. Because when the TRAs had assured him that he really could change reality with the thoughts in his head, that had been a lie. An evil, utterly indefensible, lie.

I sincerely hope that poor despairing man did not end up committing suicide, but if he did I know who I would hold responsible.
 
Pixel42 said:
Do you really expect him to come back to the thread, let alone respond to this?
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I'm honestly hoping so. This thread is more than a little one-sided, and as a bunch of skeptics, it would be great to have a less... extreme... discussion, with input from all angles. I get his position from other threads; he sees trans people like any other people,and they are what they say they are. All well and good, till you hit the practical applications. I'd like to hear what he thinks when things get messy, rather than just the idealized abstraction of how we deal with atypical people.
Pixel42 said:
I'm amazed he returned at all, and not remotely surprised he completely ignored every point made in response to his post. Because the only way he can maintain his delusion of moral superiority is to never examine the position and memes he is parroting.
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Well yeah, he's committed that what he thinks is right, and I believe he walks it like he talks it. That's why I'd like to hear him address the thornier parts of the debate, like these middle aged sex offenders who walk into the girls showers. That can't be acceptable, in any sane world.
Pixel42 said:
The thing is, I can absolutely understand where he's coming from. If I had never stopped and fully thought it through, I'd still be in that place myself.
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That's why this should be a good place to talk it out. All in and on net, transwomen who undergo gender affirmation surgeries ("sex change"), I think should probably be afforded recognition as a woman. If they elect to keep their 'outie', they keep the use of facilities designed for those with an outie. I mean, is that fair as far as that goes?
Pixel42 said:
A while back I read an article about the experiences of men with gender dysphoria who were attempting to live their lives as women, in a place where the TRAs had got every concession they wanted. They were heartbreaking, and I particularly felt for one poor man who was working in a Museum. Most of the visitors treated him politely, though it was always clear to him that they knew he was male, but what he absolutely dreaded were school visits. Because young kids didn't understand how they were supposed to react to him, so they reacted honestly. And by their reactions he understood that, however hard he tried to dress and act like a woman, it would never be enough. Because when the TRAs had assured him that he really could change reality with the thoughts in his head, that had been a lie. An evil, utterly indefensible, lie.

I sincerely hope that poor despairing man did not end up committing suicide, but if he did I know who I would hold responsible.
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Sad tale. But kids are kids everywhere, and will sometimes mock others, not knowing any better. A lot of physically handicapped people are well acquainted with kids being cruel, knowingly or not.

Eta: I guess that's the sticking point- we all like to think in terms of being rational and considerate adults, but that's not always what we will face in meat space.
 
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OK, now tell us how we can tell which men have had their bits chopped off and which haven't. "Genital inspections" at the door?

Caveat, that is not my only objection to that proposal, but it's one I'd particularly like to hear addressed.
 
Rolfe said:
OK, now tell us how we can tell which men have had their bits chopped off and which haven't. "Genital inspections" at the door?

Caveat, that is not my only objection to that proposal, but it's one I'd particularly like to hear addressed.
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The TPAs have painted themselves into a corner. "Papers please" doesn't work for them, and self-ID doesn't work for anyone else.
 
theprestige said:
The TPAs have painted themselves into a corner. "Papers please" doesn't work for them, and self-ID doesn't work for anyone else.
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"Papers please" isn't going to work on any level. First, they'll insist that's degrading and discriminatory, second, it's impractical - imagine you go into a women's toilet and there's a man in a dress already there, it's putting an intolerable burden on the woman to ask to see a certificate - and third, they'd just forge the certification anyway.
 
Some recent articles: Tide is starting to turn in sport and in society

unherd.com

Trans activists still don’t understand the need for women’s refuges

On Friday evening, I debated Helen Webberley, who — no longer licensed to practise as a doctor — now calls herself a “gender specialist”. She became known as the front of Gender GP, a private service that states on its website: “Skip the NHS’s 5-10 year wait times. Get compassionate...
unherd.com unherd.com

And another from the Irish Independent: "Her sperm" is what we get when trans beliefs meet biological reality
 
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