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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

LondonJohn said:
It took just one minute and 2 seconds to capsize? Wow - that is fast.
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You may read my response here:

Vixen

Split Thread Post in thread 'Conspiracy theories about unconventional usage of notation'



Here's some homework for you.

Question 1. Using Base-60 ONLY, show how you would annotate a value of zero using primes.

Question 2. Most posters were only aware that primes were used in denoting time durations in primes as a short hand. - for example, in jotting down race times on sports day - when composer John Gage's 4'33" was pointed out. Task: taking care to take note of the above in Question 1, , describe how John Cage might...
 
Vixen said:
You may read my response here:

Vixen

Split Thread Post in thread 'Conspiracy theories about unconventional usage of notation'



Here's some homework for you.

Question 1. Using Base-60 ONLY, show how you would annotate a value of zero using primes.

Question 2. Most posters were only aware that primes were used in denoting time durations in primes as a short hand. - for example, in jotting down race times on sports day - when composer John Gage's 4'33" was pointed out. Task: taking care to take note of the above in Question 1, , describe how John Cage might...
Click to expand...

??? I don't understand your positioning on this.

See: when denoting time, the first prime cut (') solely and inviolably denotes minutes. And the second cut (") solely and inviolably denotes seconds (the clue's also in the name there....). Where did you get the nonsensical idea that the sender is free to choose what ' and '' denote?
 
Vixen said:
It is factual and recorded in the Swedish Riksdag [_sp?] that the passenger ferry had been used for military smuggling (= that can only mean Soviet stuff to the west) in the same month as the MS Estonia disaster. The downfall of the former USSR was sealed 1991 and under the Potsdam Agreement the Soviets were supposed to get the hell out of the Baltic states (Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia) as well as their other Eastern bloc satellite countries. Whilst it might have been a time of glasnost under Yeltsin, there were still significant tensions. The Soviets didn't get out of Estonia until 1995. It still has a sizeable Russian ethnic population. I was there recently and just about every restaurant has the menu not only in the native language and English, but also in Russian. I noticed the same thing in Gdansk (or at least at their airport). So, given the combination of Eiseln, a US born ethnic Estonian shipped in from the USA as the then Estonian military leader, together with Clinton and Bildt with strong CIA links, it is easy to see why some feared political sabotage or mafia type retribution. Both Andresson and Piht were Russian-trained (albeit not known as former Communist Party members). Especially as the M/S Estonia was the eponymous flagship of Estlines.

I thought I knew a lot about the complex history of this region but it wasn't until a recent visit to the Occupation Museum in Riga, which featured both the Nazi Germans and the Stalinist Soviet oppression of Latvia. (There is a similar museum in Tallinn, which we didn't have time to see but is likely very similar to the Riga one.) Rather like the history of the Holocaust, I was well-versed in the Shoah, growing up in an area with a high Jewish refugee population (Brondesbury/Kilburn/Willesden Green) and most of my employers being Jewish, it was only after I visited the Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem that the whole thing was really brought home large: the life size photos of the victims, and their possessions, family, friends, communities, together with the atrocities. The Occupation Museum in Riga was in a similar style, the gulags, the rounding up its Jewish population and decimated; under the Third Reich only to be replaced by Stalin; deportation and life in the gulags. So to my mind, the suspicion it was political/mafia revenge seems a reasonable one to me. This exhibition poster here sums up how being sandwiched between a couple of super powers - or even three, if one counts the Swedish Empire - makes for an enormous amount of conflict even today. (The population of Estonia is barely 2m, and likewise, Latvia; compare and contrast.) So yes, I can quite see how Bildt had motive to play things down, had there really been CIA involvement.

IMG_20251018_112222 by Username Vixen, on Flickr
Click to expand...

Absolutely FASCINATING. Every bit of it. None of it remotely relevant as to how & why the Estonia sank.
 
Vixen just told us how suspicious we ought to think it is that the report on the sinking didn't go into details about the bodies observed on the bridge by divers.

But then unironically quotes one of those involved in the dives who himself literally says "I do not want to go into details about the bodies".
 
Vixen said:
This is obviously nonsense. How credible is it that the authorities had no interest in the captain and the bridge crew? Think about it. No mention of it in the JAIC Report clearly means it was deemed 'not for public eyes'.

Andi Meister in Unfinished Logbook writes:


Captain Aarne Valgma, who observed the work of the divers, said in his testimony: [- sworn statement] "Everything that the divers saw, we also saw on our monitors. Since the work went on around the clock, it was impossible for one person to monitor everything. As much as I was physically able to observe this work, I did it. At the same time, the fact was that everything that happened below was recorded on tape. This means that the missing time could be watched on videotape."

"I do not want to go into details about the bodies," the witness continued, "but I can say in all seriousness that while the divers were on board, the bodies were recognizable. I cannot say that all the corpses were looked at and could be recognised. However, I can assure you that the faces of the corpses that were caught on camera were recognizable." This has been confirmed by Captain Aarne Valgma with his signature.

Taking a closer look at the video films and the diaries of the divers' work, I had to admit a strange thing: the cabins of the ship's top officers and other key persons were not examined at the front of the upper decks.

Odd, but there is no evidence to the contrary. No attempt was made to enter the cabin of the captain, the chief engineer or the shipowner on the eighth deck, despite the fact that their windows could be accessed. They didn't even look through the window or try to determine whether it was closed or open. The entrance could also have been attempted through the bridge of command. The cabins on the front row of the seventh deck, which belonged to the ship's senior officers, were also kept away. The same was true of the first cabins on the sixth deck, where there were also officials on this voyage

Videotapes and diaries do not show that there is a known interest in the medical service and the information desk. No attempt was made to break open the lock-up door either.
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The captain and bridge crew were dead What could they have told the enquiry?
 
Vixen said:
Shhhhhh....Hush! Don't tell them that! They need someone to pick on!!!
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They pick on the one and only person who keeps on and on repeating these meritless conspiracy theories over and over again as if they had any truth in them. If you keep championing these loony ideas you can't really be surprised when people get the mistaken impression you don't think they're completely potty.
 
LondonJohn said:
Where did you get the nonsensical idea that the sender is free to choose what ' and '' denote?
Click to expand...

Most likely, from a distorted memory of someone pointing out the potential ambiguity of informal colon notation for elapsed time or duration, as in hh:mm or mm:ss. Not actually applicable to ' and " notation at all.
 
Vixen said:
I thought I knew a lot
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:popcorn2
Vixen said:
but
Click to expand...
  1. then I visited a museum
  2. and didn't visit a similar museum
  3. having met some Jews when I was growing up
  4. before I visited another museum
  5. that had pictures
  6. and was sort of like that first museum I mentioned
  7. "So to my mind, the suspicion it was political/mafia revenge seems a reasonable one to me."
Vixen said:
So yes, I can quite see how Bildt had motive to play things down, had there really been CIA involvement.
Click to expand...
 
Vixen said:
This is obviously nonsense. How credible is it that the authorities had no interest in the captain and the bridge crew? Think about it. No mention of it in the JAIC Report clearly means it was deemed 'not for public eyes'.
Click to expand...
"Because I say so."

Vixen said:
Andi Meister in Unfinished Logbook writes:
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...a lot of unsubstantiated nonsense and irresponsible speculation.

Vixen said:
It is factual...
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No, The Hole is a bad spy novel trying hard to seem like journalism. I'm glad you got to visit museums when you were younger, but none of what you report has anything to do with MS Estonia.

Vixen said:
You may read my response here:
Click to expand...
No, you were not a genius who got it right when everyone else got it wrong. You confused everyone by getting it wrong, then doubled- and tripled-downed on it. You're still trying to win, and still getting it wrong. We had a thread about this.

Pathetic.
 
Vixen said:
So to my mind, the suspicion it was political/mafia revenge seems a reasonable one to me.
Click to expand...

You know what seems even more reasonable to me? That politicians and shipbuilders whose reputations and competence are implicated in the disaster would spin alternative theories intended to get themselves off the hook. I guess some people prefer camel to gnat.
 
Last edited:
Reflecting someone else's earlier comment, I also came to this forum to expand my knowledge and learn new things in areas where I have no expertise, while exercising/sharpening any critical thinking skills that I thought I had. This thread has certainly been an education in the futility of arguing with CTists / attention seekers! Respect is due to those who have been at it for years, because I'm fair scunnered.
 
Vixen said:
This is obviously nonsense. How credible is it that the authorities had no interest in the captain and the bridge crew? Think about it. No mention of it in the JAIC Report clearly means it was deemed 'not for public eyes'.

Andi Meister in Unfinished Logbook writes:


Captain Aarne Valgma, who observed the work of the divers, said in his testimony: [- sworn statement] "Everything that the divers saw, we also saw on our monitors. Since the work went on around the clock, it was impossible for one person to monitor everything. As much as I was physically able to observe this work, I did it. At the same time, the fact was that everything that happened below was recorded on tape. This means that the missing time could be watched on videotape."

"I do not want to go into details about the bodies," the witness continued, "but I can say in all seriousness that while the divers were on board, the bodies were recognizable. I cannot say that all the corpses were looked at and could be recognised. However, I can assure you that the faces of the corpses that were caught on camera were recognizable." This has been confirmed by Captain Aarne Valgma with his signature.

Taking a closer look at the video films and the diaries of the divers' work, I had to admit a strange thing: the cabins of the ship's top officers and other key persons were not examined at the front of the upper decks.

Odd, but there is no evidence to the contrary. No attempt was made to enter the cabin of the captain, the chief engineer or the shipowner on the eighth deck, despite the fact that their windows could be accessed. They didn't even look through the window or try to determine whether it was closed or open. The entrance could also have been attempted through the bridge of command. The cabins on the front row of the seventh deck, which belonged to the ship's senior officers, were also kept away. The same was true of the first cabins on the sixth deck, where there were also officials on this voyage

Videotapes and diaries do not show that there is a known interest in the medical service and the information desk. No attempt was made to break open the lock-up door either.
Click to expand...
Not everyone is comfortable risking the lives of divers by sending them on pointless tasks that have nothing to do with the ship sinking. They're on a very important clock, and they had a list of items to find, or recover, or record. Even if the captain had stayed on the bridge the ship was still going to sink. This is a non-issue.
 
Vixen said:
It is factual and recorded in the Swedish Riksdag [_sp?] that the passenger ferry had been used for military smuggling (= that can only mean Soviet stuff to the west) in the same month as the MS Estonia disaster. The downfall of the former USSR was sealed 1991 and under the Potsdam Agreement the Soviets were supposed to get the hell out of the Baltic states (Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia) as well as their other Eastern bloc satellite countries. Whilst it might have been a time of glasnost under Yeltsin, there were still significant tensions. The Soviets didn't get out of Estonia until 1995. It still has a sizeable Russian ethnic population. I was there recently and just about every restaurant has the menu not only in the native language and English, but also in Russian. I noticed the same thing in Gdansk (or at least at their airport). So, given the combination of Eiseln, a US born ethnic Estonian shipped in from the USA as the then Estonian military leader, together with Clinton and Bildt with strong CIA links, it is easy to see why some feared political sabotage or mafia type retribution. Both Andresson and Piht were Russian-trained (albeit not known as former Communist Party members). Especially as the M/S Estonia was the eponymous flagship of Estlines.

I thought I knew a lot about the complex history of this region but it wasn't until a recent visit to the Occupation Museum in Riga, which featured both the Nazi Germans and the Stalinist Soviet oppression of Latvia. (There is a similar museum in Tallinn, which we didn't have time to see but is likely very similar to the Riga one.) Rather like the history of the Holocaust, I was well-versed in the Shoah, growing up in an area with a high Jewish refugee population (Brondesbury/Kilburn/Willesden Green) and most of my employers being Jewish, it was only after I visited the Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem that the whole thing was really brought home large: the life size photos of the victims, and their possessions, family, friends, communities, together with the atrocities. The Occupation Museum in Riga was in a similar style, the gulags, the rounding up its Jewish population and decimated; under the Third Reich only to be replaced by Stalin; deportation and life in the gulags. So to my mind, the suspicion it was political/mafia revenge seems a reasonable one to me. This exhibition poster here sums up how being sandwiched between a couple of super powers - or even three, if one counts the Swedish Empire - makes for an enormous amount of conflict even today. (The population of Estonia is barely 2m, and likewise, Latvia; compare and contrast.) So yes, I can quite see how Bildt had motive to play things down, had there really been CIA involvement.

IMG_20251018_112222 by Username Vixen, on Flickr
Click to expand...
And this is why this thread is in the Conspiracy Theory board and not the Science & Technology or History boards.
 
Axxman300 said:
Not everyone is comfortable risking the lives of divers by sending them on pointless tasks that have nothing to do with the ship sinking. They're on a very important clock, and they had a list of items to find, or recover, or record. Even if the captain had stayed on the bridge the ship was still going to sink. This is a non-issue.
Click to expand...
Well said.

In an earlier discussion in this thread, I tried to bring to the table a little bit of my experience in overseeing commercial diving operations in the oil&gas industry, including jobs performed by Rockwater (not Rockwell :rolleyes:), and indeed I identified one of the divers involved in the Estonia job whom (it turns out) I know personally/professionally. So I would modestly claim to have a reasonable knowledge of how a commercial diving operation works, in terms of defined scope, hazard management, and recording/reporting, albeit not in a salvage-type operation like the Estonia - which, it must be said, is pretty harrowing for the dive team, to be digging around dead bodies. The individual diver that I am acquainted with, is no 'snowflake' (I hate that term), but is ex-SAS, so he's been around plenty deaths and grim situations.

However, some participants think they know better, because they can Google or ask AI for the definition of a hull! 'Think about it'.
 
Jesus Christ the prime notation thing again?

Vixen why do you persist in your ignorance of prime notation of time and then try to gaslight everyone into believing that no one but you knew about the concept of prime notation of time?
 
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