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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

This thread is very entertaining, albeit it's hard sometimes to tell what is parody and what are genuine beliefs...

I asked a while back but it went unanswered, directed at those who don't believe the 'official narrative' and/or keep picking holes in the JAIC report:
What do you believe really caused the sinking? What is your alternative version of events?
It will remain unanswered, as it did when I asked. Conspiracy fantasists do not have consistent narratives. They bounce around the perimeters of consistent narratives by making up fantasies to JAQoff at. The goal is to maintain the illusion of being important by having sane sensible people responding to them.
 
But the strange thing is, the JAIC report tells us nothing about what the captain was doing or how he was identified. The captain is key in shipping accident investigations but here we are no wiser as to why it was the third and fourth mates (Tammes and Kaunisaar) doing the MAYDAY stuff. JAIC omits this vital information.
The JAIC doesn't discuss the captain BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO INFORMATION ABOUT HIS ACTIONS. The report, unlike you, does not deal in speculation. They could guess, and so can most of the reasonable people posting on this thread, but speculation is a waste of time. And they know the cause of the sinking, and the captain was a contributing factor, but in the end it was Estonia's design flaws. Some reports will hypothesize ON TECHNICAL ISSUES because there is paraphernal data, and historical data to draw upon.

And while I'm no technical expert, if I'm in an cabin on a lower deck, and the list makes it impossible to exit, or the passage way is packed with panicking passengers, I'm going out the window even if I have to break it. I doubt I'm unique in this line of thinking.
 
There's only one who can answer your question (ie the one lonely conspiracy believer), all the rest are just 'takin the piss' as we say lol
No. There is nobody here who can answer. Vixen does not support the conspiracy theories.

She merely reports that they exist and that others believe them and make various claims. Over and over and over.
 
This thread is very entertaining, albeit it's hard sometimes to tell what is parody and what are genuine beliefs...

I asked a while back but it went unanswered, directed at those who don't believe the 'official narrative' and/or keep picking holes in the JAIC report:
What do you believe really caused the sinking? What is your alternative version of events?
Vixen's theory is that the Russians sank the Estonia because it was being used to smuggle Soviet military gear. And the Swedes covered it up to prevent Russia from invading the country of Estonia.

I've no idea why Sweden deciding to cover-up an act of Russian state terrorism would prevent Russians from invading Estonia, perhaps Vixen can elaborate. I'm sure if she gives an answer it will be devoid of facts and full of speculation, supposition and perhaps one of her favorite phrases, "think about it" which if you read it is bound to be followed by some rambling half-baked just-so story devoid of relevant facts.
 
A Russian minisub just for you.

View attachment 65583
You are not helping your argument. Seriously, how fast do you think this POS goes? The Russians don't use it to sneak up on moving vessels. I doubt they could use it in the kind of weather that sank the Estonia. The US Navy couldn't launch ours in such weather, and it doesn't chase down moving vessels.
 
Vixen's theory is that the Russians sank the Estonia because it was being used to smuggle Soviet military gear. And the Swedes covered it up to prevent Russia from invading the country of Estonia.

I've no idea why Sweden deciding to cover-up an act of Russian state terrorism would prevent Russians from invading Estonia, perhaps Vixen can elaborate. I'm sure if she gives an answer it will be devoid of facts and full of speculation, supposition and perhaps one of her favorite phrases, "think about it" which if you read it is bound to be followed by some rambling half-baked just-so story devoid of relevant facts.
Is it me or does nobody notice how the FSB deals with this kind of thing in real life? How many corrupt and or inept Russian generals have "Fallen out the window of a high building" over the years? How many went for a walk and never returned? They stopped doing show-trials after Gorbachev. They're not sinking a ferry. They track the seller and the buyer down, and do their thing.
 
Is it me or does nobody notice how the FSB deals with this kind of thing in real life? How many corrupt and or inept Russian generals have "Fallen out the window of a high building" over the years? How many went for a walk and never returned? They stopped doing show-trials after Gorbachev. They're not sinking a ferry. They track the seller and the buyer down, and do their thing.
Vixen thinks that because the sinking started at the "stroke of Swedish midnight" (it didn't) and happened roughly at the halfway point of its journey, this implies military precision and a deliberate message by the Russians as to who was responsible. Does this kind of cryptic nonsense sound like anything the Russians actually get up to?

Which, again, I can't make sense of. Does *anyone* but Vixen think that the timing and location of the sinking is a message from the Russians? Is it meant to be a message that anyone can read, in which case, why not just say you did it? Or was it meant to be a cryptic message only some people can figure out?

There's absolutely no coherent sensible narrative from Vixen as to what actually happened.

It may or may not involve a Royal Navy escort submarine, a Russian minisub (which may have wheels and travel on the seafloor), limpet mines, blank torpedos, demolition charges, the bow visor being opened in the middle of a storm in order to push out a truck full of heroin, Spetsnaz, the bridge being taken over by gunmen, the captain (or maybe someone else, I can't keep up with the carnival of nonsense) being shot, helicopter rescue crew being bribed with medals to cover-up their taking part in secretly whisking off the Estonia's senior crew, secret CIA flights, a CIA black site in Germany, a secret trial at the black site, secret dives to the wreck.... etc. I could go on but it's just all too silly.
 
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Vixen thinks that because the sinking started at the "stroke of Swedish midnight" (it didn't) and happened roughly at the halfway point of its journey, this implies military precision and a deliberate message by the Russians as to who was responsible. Does this kind of cryptic nonsense sound like anything the Russians actually get up to?

Which, again, I can't make sense of. Does *anyone* but Vixen think that the timing and location of the sinking is a message from the Russians? Is it meant to be a message that anyone can read, in which case, why not just say you did it? Or was it meant to be a cryptic message only some people can figure out?

There's absolutely no coherent sensible narrative from Vixen as to what actually happened.

It may or may not involve a Royal Navy escort submarine, a Russian minisub (which may have wheels and travel on the seafloor), limpet mines, blank torpedos, demolition charges, the bow visor being opened in the middle of a storm in order to push out a truck full of heroin, Spetsnaz, the bridge being taken over by gunmen, the captain (or maybe someone else, I can't keep up with the carnival of nonsense) being shot, helicopter rescue crew being bribed with medals to cover-up their taking part in secretly whisking off the Estonia's senior crew, secret CIA flights, a CIA black site in Germany, a secret trial at the black site, secret dives to the wreck.... etc. I could go on but it's just all too silly.
Dont forget the radioactive gunk that ate the bow door away...

Without it our hero can't get bitten by a spider and turn into a webslinging hero holding the ferry together after it was cut in half....
1762476970197.png
Oh wait- that was the OTHER piece of ferry fiction... always get those two mixed up....
 
Dont forget the radioactive gunk that ate the bow door away...

Without it our hero can't get bitten by a spider and turn into a webslinging hero holding the ferry together after it was cut in half....
View attachment 65613
Oh wait- that was the OTHER piece of ferry fiction... always get those two mixed up....
A ferry tale, as it were.
 
The JAIC doesn't discuss the captain BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO INFORMATION ABOUT HIS ACTIONS. The report, unlike you, does not deal in speculation. They could guess, and so can most of the reasonable people posting on this thread, but speculation is a waste of time. And they know the cause of the sinking, and the captain was a contributing factor, but in the end it was Estonia's design flaws. Some reports will hypothesize ON TECHNICAL ISSUES because there is paraphernal data, and historical data to draw upon.

And while I'm no technical expert, if I'm in an cabin on a lower deck, and the list makes it impossible to exit, or the passage way is packed with panicking passengers, I'm going out the window even if I have to break it. I doubt I'm unique in this line of thinking.
This is obviously nonsense. How credible is it that the authorities had no interest in the captain and the bridge crew? Think about it. No mention of it in the JAIC Report clearly means it was deemed 'not for public eyes'.

Andi Meister in Unfinished Logbook writes:


Captain Aarne Valgma, who observed the work of the divers, said in his testimony: [- sworn statement] "Everything that the divers saw, we also saw on our monitors. Since the work went on around the clock, it was impossible for one person to monitor everything. As much as I was physically able to observe this work, I did it. At the same time, the fact was that everything that happened below was recorded on tape. This means that the missing time could be watched on videotape."

"I do not want to go into details about the bodies," the witness continued, "but I can say in all seriousness that while the divers were on board, the bodies were recognizable. I cannot say that all the corpses were looked at and could be recognised. However, I can assure you that the faces of the corpses that were caught on camera were recognizable." This has been confirmed by Captain Aarne Valgma with his signature.

Taking a closer look at the video films and the diaries of the divers' work, I had to admit a strange thing: the cabins of the ship's top officers and other key persons were not examined at the front of the upper decks.

Odd, but there is no evidence to the contrary. No attempt was made to enter the cabin of the captain, the chief engineer or the shipowner on the eighth deck, despite the fact that their windows could be accessed. They didn't even look through the window or try to determine whether it was closed or open. The entrance could also have been attempted through the bridge of command. The cabins on the front row of the seventh deck, which belonged to the ship's senior officers, were also kept away. The same was true of the first cabins on the sixth deck, where there were also officials on this voyage

Videotapes and diaries do not show that there is a known interest in the medical service and the information desk. No attempt was made to break open the lock-up door either.

 
Vixen's theory is that the Russians sank the Estonia because it was being used to smuggle Soviet military gear. And the Swedes covered it up to prevent Russia from invading the country of Estonia.

I've no idea why Sweden deciding to cover-up an act of Russian state terrorism would prevent Russians from invading Estonia, perhaps Vixen can elaborate. I'm sure if she gives an answer it will be devoid of facts and full of speculation, supposition and perhaps one of her favorite phrases, "think about it" which if you read it is bound to be followed by some rambling half-baked just-so story devoid of relevant facts.
It is factual and recorded in the Swedish Riksdag [_sp?] that the passenger ferry had been used for military smuggling (= that can only mean Soviet stuff to the west) in the same month as the MS Estonia disaster. The downfall of the former USSR was sealed 1991 and under the Potsdam Agreement the Soviets were supposed to get the hell out of the Baltic states (Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia) as well as their other Eastern bloc satellite countries. Whilst it might have been a time of glasnost under Yeltsin, there were still significant tensions. The Soviets didn't get out of Estonia until 1995. It still has a sizeable Russian ethnic population. I was there recently and just about every restaurant has the menu not only in the native language and English, but also in Russian. I noticed the same thing in Gdansk (or at least at their airport). So, given the combination of Eiseln, a US born ethnic Estonian shipped in from the USA as the then Estonian military leader, together with Clinton and Bildt with strong CIA links, it is easy to see why some feared political sabotage or mafia type retribution. Both Andresson and Piht were Russian-trained (albeit not known as former Communist Party members). Especially as the M/S Estonia was the eponymous flagship of Estlines.

I thought I knew a lot about the complex history of this region but it wasn't until a recent visit to the Occupation Museum in Riga, which featured both the Nazi Germans and the Stalinist Soviet oppression of Latvia. (There is a similar museum in Tallinn, which we didn't have time to see but is likely very similar to the Riga one.) Rather like the history of the Holocaust, I was well-versed in the Shoah, growing up in an area with a high Jewish refugee population (Brondesbury/Kilburn/Willesden Green) and most of my employers being Jewish, it was only after I visited the Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem that the whole thing was really brought home large: the life size photos of the victims, and their possessions, family, friends, communities, together with the atrocities. The Occupation Museum in Riga was in a similar style, the gulags, the rounding up its Jewish population and decimated; under the Third Reich only to be replaced by Stalin; deportation and life in the gulags. So to my mind, the suspicion it was political/mafia revenge seems a reasonable one to me. This exhibition poster here sums up how being sandwiched between a couple of super powers - or even three, if one counts the Swedish Empire - makes for an enormous amount of conflict even today. (The population of Estonia is barely 2m, and likewise, Latvia; compare and contrast.) So yes, I can quite see how Bildt had motive to play things down, had there really been CIA involvement.

IMG_20251018_112222 by Username Vixen, on Flickr
 
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