Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

Pixel42 said:
Neither my passport nor my driving licence give my height or weight.
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My (Washington State) driving license has both. My EU passport has height. Both of them have a picture of me as well. What purpose does that serve in your opinion? Hair colour? Eye colour? It's all part of who you are and serves to identify the bearer. So does sex (not gender).
 
I don't think it was ever a useful distinguishing feature and with the new biometric identification methods it's even less so. So if it's now causing an issue, however unnecessarily, then just get rid of it.
 
It was useful. Nobody had to be stripped to ascertain which sex they were until like yesterday. And even now, it's damn few. But there could be a case for removing it. But if in fact there are reasons to keep it, then the demands of the trans lobby should not over-ride these.

It's another Chesterton's fence thing. Let's not do this to appease the trans lobby (like many organisations made all their toilets and changing rooms unisex/mixed sex to appease the trans lobby) without having a very very careful look into the possible downsides.
 
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Ziggurat said:
This might cause problems for passing trans people who want to travel to certain middle eastern countries or the like, where the government might harass them for being trans, but why the ◊◊◊◊ do they want to go there anyways?
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To heckle Dave Chappelle, obvs.
Ron Obvious said:
It's all part of who you are and serves to identify the bearer. So does sex (not gender).
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For the individuals who've gone undertaken years-long efforts to resemble the opposite of their birth sex, probably gender is more indicative. I'd suggest changing the sex marker to gender (masc/fem/neut instead of male/female) but that would probably just piss off both sides.
 
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Here you go again, proposing a huge change to a fundamental system that has been in place, working well, for a very long time, just to appease the tiny number of people who have "undertaken years-long efforts to resemble the opposite of their birth sex". Let's just not do that. Just think about the huge, enormous, humungous consequential problems.

Let's stop proposing to turn society upside down at the behest of the trans lobby. It hasn't gone well with toilets and changing rooms, let alone the rest of it. It's not going to go well with passports either.
 
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Rolfe said:
Just think about the huge, enormous, humungous consequential problems.
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Nothing comes immediately to mind here; the passport photo is doing most of the heavy lifting in terms of identification.

I'm interested in hearing what the huge problems would be from either adding a gender marker or eliminating the sex marker altogether.
 
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Where would you draw the line? Do the furries get to put a spirit animal on their ID or something?

I really don't see the point of "gender" on your ID at all, any more than sexual preference, religion, or favourite colour. Sex is a real part of who you are and your identity. Do I get to put a different birth date on it if I just feel I'm much younger than I what I really am? Where does this nonsense end?

You are what you are. Deal with it.
 
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d4m10n said:
I'm interested in hearing what the huge problems would be from either adding a gender marker or eliminating the sex marker altogether.
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It's the camel's nose in the tent. Substituting gender for sex is what got us into this mess. Gender doesn't matter, sex does.
 
Ziggurat said:
Gender doesn't matter, sex does.
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What matters depends on context.

Sex matters much more than gender for the OP (powerlifting) but that doesn't mean sex matters more in every possible context. If I'm i.d.'ing a passing trans man by inspecting their passport, seeing an "F" sex marker is going to cause some (avoidable) confusion.
 
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d4m10n said:
Sex matters much more than gender for the OP (powerlifting) but that doesn't mean sex matters more in every possible context. If I'm i.d.'ing a passing trans man by inspecting their passport, seeing an "F" sex marker is going to cause some (avoidable) confusion.
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Why would you prefer deception to momentary confusion? That’s not a preferable state of affairs.

And I know of no context in which the government has any legitimate interest in your gender.
 
d4m10n said:
What matters depends on context.

Sex matters much more than gender for the OP (powerlifting) but that doesn't mean sex matters more in every possible context. If I'm i.d.'ing a passing trans man by inspecting their passport, seeing an "F" sex marker is going to cause some (avoidable) confusion.
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I can make the opposite argument.... A transgender self-identified male called Jamie Smith goes missing. Jamie's passport and driver's license are marked with an "F", so the searchers think they are looking for a woman. Later, the body of a deceased person is found - the body is naked and has been murdered. Its Jamie, but the searchers don't realize they have found the missing person.
 
And that thing that never happens, happens again.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk

Drag queen nursery teacher snared by paedo hunters after kids shared messages

The man - who we cannot name for legal reasons - was arrested after police were called to the Paisley area on Thursday, October 30.
www.dailyrecord.co.uk www.dailyrecord.co.uk

Interesting that this happened in Paisley, which was the centre of a controversy related to an SNP MP promoting a drag queen being engaged to educate primary school children. I've not seen any suggestion that this is the same person.

But this person wasn't trans! The article refers to him as "him"! Absolutely nothing to do with the trans cult!

Oh yes it is.
 
This one is from August, but I haven't seen it mentioned here. Source is the BBC, so trans allies can take this to the bank...

www.bbc.com

Met Police special constable found guilty of sex offences

James Bubb, who now identifies as a woman named Gwyn Samuels, abused a position of trust, police say.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com

Bubb was found guilty of one count of raping a child under 13, one count of sexual activity with a child, one count of assault of a child under 13 by penetration, and one count of assault by penetration - all relating to the same complainant.
Bubb was also found guilty of one count of rape against a second complainant.

The court heard the officer raped the woman, who he met when she had just turned 18, while he was in an on-off relationship with her between January 2018 and February 2023.​

Sentencing is next month
 
Darlington nurses tribunal - Jo Phoenix provided expert opinion on:

It is disputed whether women are generally more sensitive than men to being compelled to undress in front of a person of the opposite biological sex and therefore more likely to suffer fear, distress, and/or humiliation caused by the application of the PCPs.
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and concluded (most of this being bleedin' obvious)

The summary of my opinion is this:
a. There is an established body of literature from which it can be inferred that women are likely to be more sensitive than men to undressing (partially) in a changing room in front of a member of the opposite sex. There is strong
evidence to indicate that women are more sensitive and uncomfortable than men to undressing (fully or partially) in front of anyone outside their immediate intimate circles of lovers and family regardless of sex.
b. Long established psychological and sociological theories attest to the differential and deleterious impact of sex differentiated modesty norms still present in all social settings. The presence and effect of sex differentiated
modesty norms has acquired the status of a taken-for-granted truth in the social sciences. There is little to no debate within social scientific literature that (i) there exist profound differences between how men and women experiences their bodies especially in relation to notions of ‘modesty’ and (ii) that the roots of these differences reside in gendered cultural norms and expectations of behaviour which carry (at times severe) social sanctions when breached. It is a widely accepted empirical observation.
c. There is an extremely robust criminological evidence base from which it can be inferred that women are far more likely than men to suffer fear and distress at being compelled to undress (defined as per the letter of instruction) in front of a member of the opposite sex. Put simply, women’s fear of male sexual predation (a much more generalised fear than men experience) is rational and grounded in the realities of the pervasive risk of male violence in women’s lives and these fears are likely to be considerably heightened in the intimate setting of a changing room where women partially undress.
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https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zk3f00wGvG4MQ4ruuingdg9m3SyoHZ9H/view

Put simply, women’s fear of male sexual predation (a much more generalised fear than men experience) is rational and grounded in the realities of the pervasive risk of male violence in women’s lives and these fears are likely to be considerably heightened in the intimate setting of a changing room where women partially undress.
 
Ziggurat said:
Why would you prefer deception to momentary confusion?
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Adding a (self-identified) gender marker is not deception, it is a different datum than birth sex. I'm not arguing for replacing sex with gender, no more than I'm arguing for replacing eye color with hair color.
Ziggurat said:
And I know of no context in which the government has any legitimate interest in your gender.
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They don't have a legitimate interest in the fact that I've green eyes, unless you count that it helps to identify me.
smartcooky said:
Later, the body of a deceased person is found - the body is naked and has been murdered. Its Jamie, but the searchers don't realize they have found the missing person.
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I'm willing to bet without even looking that passports are nearly always utilized by living people who are wearing clothes.

(Clothes which they bought either in the men's or the women's section, depending on their sense of gender.)
 
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Ziggurat said:
Taking the name of his abuse victim? That's some top grade predator behavior.

But he's a doll, so protect him.
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It's quite common for a man who goes trans to appropriate the appearance and even identity of a woman in his life. It's known as skinwalking. There's one quite famous case of a man who was trans while his wife was alive turning himself into a ludicrous facsimile of her after she died. Theo/Beth Upton is quite obviously skinwalking his wife. When Jonathan Yaniv transitioned, he chose the name Jessica which was the name of a women he had been stalking. She's quite upset about it.
 
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