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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

arthwollipot said:
I'm getting it from non-Zionist sources, like the experts at the International Association of Genocide Scholars. You know, people who make a career out of defining and describing genocide.

And to call it a "blood libel" is profoundly offensive
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These scholars, like most of the western academy, are well to the left and uncritically repeat things that have been told but that they want to hear, anyway.

By the way, for all the talk online and off about Mandela and the struggle against South Africa, how many are mentioning that the ANC is still in power over 30 years after "freedom"?
 
arthwollipot said:
Accepted the reality of a globally-sanctioned group of invaders forcing them out of their homes and off their land?

The whole region would have been better off if Israel was never created. But the world was reeling from the Holocaust and the Zionists had the sympathy of the world. So it is what it is.
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Not an invasion and the Arab leadership refused to even attempt negotiation or compromise -- just straight to war.


They then lost that war.
 
NatalieSalat said:
There wasn't a country or nation called Palestine in 1947. The Palestinian national identity remained shadowy until after the defeat in the Six Day War. In fact, just after the Yom Kippur War, student unions in the west, including my father's, passed motions demanding that Israel return the territory it seized in 1967 to Egypt, Jordan and Syria. The notion that these were "Palestinian territories" had not yet been thought of.
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Thank you again for history haters of Israel find uncomfortable
 
NatalieSalat said:
By the way, for all the talk online and off about Mandela and the struggle against South Africa, how many are mentioning that the ANC is still in power over 30 years after "freedom"?
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I'm not sure why you are referring to this. Can you explain?
 
Israel's military leader is indicating that the Hadar Goldin issue is now paramount.

www.israelnationalnews.com

Chief of Staff: 'No terrorist will leave Gaza until Hadar Goldin is returned'

IDF Chief of Staff Eyal Zamir delivers a firm message to the political echelon on the terrorists who are still in the Rafah area.
www.israelnationalnews.com www.israelnationalnews.com

There are about 200 HAMAS terrorists trapped in a tunnel, who are demanding to be let go and traverse the Yellow Lines to reunite with the main body of HAMAS operatives in the Red Zone (where IDF isn't operating).

One idea has been to cement them into the underground passages (entombed).
Apparently, that's too harsh.

By the way, there are now just 4 Jewish remains from the dead hostages group unaccounted-for (not including Lt. Goldin from 2014). Plus two non-Jews, one from Thailand, one from Tanzania.
I offer that information for those who are keeping track of this matter...
 
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arthwollipot, did you investigate the 20 IAGS who voted against? Or why only 1/3 of the membership of this illustrious group of scholars even deigned to take part in the voting? That information would appear to be vital to understanding the claim of genocide being put forward within that organization...

Also, when you said the Israelis are seeking the death or expulsion of "every Palestinian man, woman and child in Gaza" my curiosity is piqued, because that doesn't seem to have happened, nor is is being sought. Again, no intent towards this figmentary 'goal' is evident. Where is there an effort being made to implement what you claim?

Here's a cool article about the future of Gaza ---
www.ynetnews.com

The riviera on Gaza’s ruins: A global economic experiment disguised as reconstruction

Opinion: The GREAT Trust plan to rebuild Gaza isn't just humanitarian aid—it’s a test case for turning land into financial assets; beneath talk of innovation lies a modern form of feudalism, where devastated territories become digital-age commodities
www.ynetnews.com www.ynetnews.com

(byline Dr. Bella Barda Bareket, a self-described global trends analyst specializing in the intersection of economics, geopolitics and technology).
These are the types of people who are needed currently to step up and formulate plans.
The folks screaming 'genocide' and 'Zionazis' are going to be in for a rude awakening when they discover that Gaza will have to cooperate and confederate with Israel regardless.
A shift to street-protesting "Zionists" as evil incarnates and requiring some retribution for the actions in this war, is doomed to failure and will not help the Palestinian cause one iota.

 
Planigale said:
If Israel can return the wrong body of a child hostage, with all its forensic and medical resources intact and not under constant attack, then it seems hypocritical to expect Gazans with no resources to confirm identity not to make mistakes.
www.aljazeera.com

Israel returns wrong body to killed Palestinian teenager’s family

The mix-up draws attention to Israel's policy of withholding bodies of Palestinians who allegedly carried out attacks.
www.aljazeera.com www.aljazeera.com
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Those Gazans weren't making a mistake when they abducted and murdered that Israeli. They were doing exactly what they set out to do.
 
"McCarthyism" is false accusations of communism. Critcising and condemning actual socialists and communists is not that.

Also the projection of Arth's accusation that i am "playing the person not the ball" is obvious, given that i have pointed out realities such as that the 1949 ceasefire lines were never "borders" (at Arab insistence in 1949 for they wanted to 'finish the job').
 
webfusion said:
Here's a cool article about the future of Gaza ---
www.ynetnews.com

The riviera on Gaza’s ruins: A global economic experiment disguised as reconstruction

Opinion: The GREAT Trust plan to rebuild Gaza isn't just humanitarian aid—it’s a test case for turning land into financial assets; beneath talk of innovation lies a modern form of feudalism, where devastated territories become digital-age commodities
www.ynetnews.com www.ynetnews.com

(byline Dr. Bella Barda Bareket, a self-described global trends analyst specializing in the intersection of economics, geopolitics and technology).
These are the types of people who are needed currently to step up and formulate plans.
The folks screaming 'genocide' and 'Zionazis' are going to be in for a rude awakening when they discover that Gaza will have to cooperate and confederate with Israel regardless.
A shift to street-protesting "Zionists" as evil incarnates and requiring some retribution for the actions in this war, is doomed to failure and will not help the Palestinian cause one iota.
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Yep. Although -- despite what the keffiyeh-wearing groupies in the west say about "moral duty" -- Munich, Klinghoffer, Dolphinarium, and October 7th are but four reasons why the Israelis would feel that they are under no "moral obligation" to do anything to help.
 
NatalieSalat said:
I have a damaged filter from a stroke and additionally, autism.
Hence why i am challenging such "comfortable lies".
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This seems to be a version of a land without people zionist myth.

Whatever term you may choose, the foundation of Israel resulted in ethnic cleansing with many of the previous arab residents (both christian and muslim) of the territory that subsequently became Israel being driven out. Jewish terrorist groups committed massacres of Arabs. Many of the residents of Gaza (that some who post here want to push out into the Sinai), are from families previously resident in what is now Israel. Their villages were turned into Kibbutz. One can see nowadays how 'settlements' are used to displace arabs (christian and muslim, even those who are US citizens) from their land, just as Kibbutz were in the past.
 
"...the foundation of Israel resulted in ethnic cleansing..."

Indeed it did, as Jews in many Muslim nations were expelled, told to pack their stuff and git.
Their properties and bank accounts were confiscated, and centuries-old Jewish communities ceased to exist.
Overall, the number of Jews who were ethnically cleansed exceeded the Arabs' flight. (I'm not sure the Arabs were actually 'driven out' -- most accounts indicated they left their homes upon the urging of the Arab High Committee in anticipation of a quick Arab military victory).

Anyway, this is not 1949.
Rehashing that period of time is not in anyone's interests.
Demanding Israel withdraw to 1949 Lines is not in anyone's interests.
Those who keep asking for that outcome are just banging their heads against a brick wall.

NatalieSalat said:
Yep. Although -- despite what the keffiyeh-wearing groupies in the west say about "moral duty" -- Munich, Klinghoffer, Dolphinarium, and October 7th are but four reasons why the Israelis would feel that they are under no "moral obligation" to do anything to help.
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There are many more good reasons to ignore the Palestinian demands for 1949 Lines --- Park Hotel (2002), Bus 5 (1994), Lod Airport (1972), and on and on and on.
 
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Planigale said:
This seems to be a version of a land without people zionist myth.

Whatever term you may choose, the foundation of Israel resulted in ethnic cleansing with many of the previous arab residents (both christian and muslim) of the territory that subsequently became Israel being driven out. Jewish terrorist groups committed massacres of Arabs. Many of the residents of Gaza (that some who post here want to push out into the Sinai), are from families previously resident in what is now Israel. Their villages were turned into Kibbutz. One can see nowadays how 'settlements' are used to displace arabs (christian and muslim, even those who are US citizens) from their land, just as Kibbutz were in the past.
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Speaking of people spouting myths: Terra nullius means "no state" not "no people".

Also, given the events of 1947 and since at the hands of reactionary Arab Muslim leadership and their allied militias, saying Palestinian Christians opposed a group that were largely desperate holocaust survivors is like saying Black people fought for the Confederacy, technically yes but...
 
No, it means no state or nation, in the European legal sense of the word in the late 1700s.

"no people" would be Homo nullius.

I do not wish to show any respect to a person such as you: who readily repeats provable lies such as "1967 borders" (and perhaps, other favourite myths such as that the 1951 Refugee convention prevents detention - "arbitrary detention" is clearly intended to cover actions by dictatorships, not legitimate border controls passed by democratic governments.).
 
46 Flinders Street, Melbourne CBD, VIC 3000 is the old HWT Building. It's my little joke in the vein of how Denis Potter called his fatal cancer "Rupert" - i hate Murdoch and the Guardian for different reason but with equal vigour.
 
NatalieSalat said:
No, it means no state or nation, in the European legal sense of the word in the late 1700s.

"no people" would be Homo nullius.
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I didn't say it was "no people" I said it was "unclaimed land". By a state or nation, sure. But it does not mean "no state". Anyway, you bringing it up is irrelevant since there was no legal claim of terra nullius over Palestine at the time that it was given to Israel to occupy.
 
Do not try pedantry and semantics with me, sir. As Reich is better translated as "realm" than "empire".

And there was no state or nation of Palestine in 1947. Egypt and Jordan could have established one between 1949 and 1967, but they did not.

And over 90% of the land taken in 1967 was the Sinai. Much more valuable than either Gaza or the WB. And it was given back to Egypt in 1979.
 
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