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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

What is hilarious that some seem to think that waves won't break glass- when waves can literally buckle steel plating on the hulls...

It wasn't uncommon to see trawlers around the town I grew up in with hull damage from large waves, where you could see the outline of the hulls frames beneath the steel from wave impact...
And that was usually steel 5mm or more in thickness
Yes we both covered this a short while ago you with Trawlers and me with the hulls of Frigates that have spent a lot of time at sea in storms.

Complete with photos
 
That is not correct. It is one of the criticisms levelled at the JAIC by experts sceptical that the cause of the accident was proven to have happened as it claimed.
Apart from you which experts are skeptical that waves can't break windows?
 
The JAIC decided the car deck capacity of 2,000 tonnes of water would not have been enough to sink it, so it theorised from calculations how much more tonnes would be need to have done so.
That's correct procedure.

It then introduced the intuitive idea that the remaining volume of water must have seeped in via decks 4 and five, and the only way it could do this is via the windows.
No, this is an unfair characterization of the process. When the strictly evident sources of flooding do not support the observation of the time taken for the ship to founder, it is not only appropriate but required to look for other sources of flooding.

You seem to think the JAIC was remiss in failing to consider the hole later observed, or the prospect of any such hole. However there was no evidence of anything with which the ship could have collided, and no evidence that there was any collision damage observed on the surface. The window hypothesis requires no unreasonable claims or assumptions. The surface collision theory requires many, and is therefore rejected.

It assumes the windows smashed - as indeed they might have done...
An assumption so well supported by prior experience that it needs no further justification.

but it doesn't actually illustrate this by providing a model simulation based on the MS Estonia's own window specifications.
False. The dimensions of the opening were considered in a flooding model that shows the flood rate from those specific windows was in the vicinity of the portion of the average flood rate not supported by direct evidence. This is sufficient evidence to consider the window hypothesis probable.

Remember MS Jan Heweliusz...
No, you don't get to say one shipwreck is anomalous just because it's not like another shipwreck.

The scientific method as espoused by Karl Popper recommends one begins with the null hypothesis. That is, the null hypothesis here, is that the windows did not break and the excess water did not ingress via the windows of Decks 4 and 5.
No, that's not how science works in the field of forensic engineering investigations. Investigating happenstance events is not generally aided by classical methodology.

In any case, what are we to do with all the numerous conspiracy theories you've proposed as viable alternatives to JAIC's findings? Are they testable in the way you demand should have been done here? Were any of them tested to that same standard of proof you say is required? Are you not applying a double standard?

You made a huge deal out of Prof. Amdahl, who you allege computed the size of vessel that would be needed to poke Evertsson's hole in the hull. You seem to consider this dispositive science, although it proceeded exactly along the same lines as JAIC's reasoning regarding the Deck 4 windows—only with far less rigor. Prof. Amdahl proceeded under the assumption given to him by Evertsson that the hole was produced by a collision with a vessel on the surface. It is certainly possible to calculate the properties of such a hypothetical vessel, but there is no evidence any such vessel existed. Thus Prof. Amdahl's findings fail not at the computational level but at the conceptual level.

In contrast, JAIC's findings here are conceptually sound because there is ample evidence that wave action is sufficient to break the glass in ship windows, ample history of it having done so, and ample evidence that the windows in question were in a position to be subject to wave action.

You then set out to reject the null hypothesis by setting up a simulation using the same type of reinforced glass as used in the MS Estonia and under the same conditions as recreated in a laboratory, obviously, making everything proportional to fit. You then get your results completely objectively and analyse them later. Not decide that X tonnes of extra water was needed therefore your hypothesis is proven even though you didn't follow the scientific method.
No. Your imagination of what proper science must be in this case is not informed by education or experience. You're just making stuff up, pretending to be an expert, and trying to foist it on your betters.

Setting up a full-scale empirical test when it is known generally that waves have the ability to break ship window glass and have done so numerous times is costly and unnecessary. Further, the parameterization of such an experiment requires values that were not measured and cannot be known with certainty. Thus any marginal result would come down to a belief in a specific resolution of the uncertain values. Therefore it just kicks the can of unknowability down the road a bit and offers no probative value. Your belief that such an experiment is necessary seems predicated on your uninformed belief that ship window glass is generally too robust to be vulnerable in this way, and that the JAIC is remiss in not believing similarly. Your belief amounts to nothing more than your typical, "Because I say so," contrary to established fact.

You really need to learn to stay in your lane.
 
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Are you sure about that? If you want, I can provide a citation that the Atlantic lock was not effective at all.
In theory they are. Our barns have huge bolts across the doors (admittedly constructed early last century), together with a padlock when we are not around. Bolts have always been effective in securing barn doors. The problem with property is potential intruders. But the Atlantic bolt on the Estonia was simply there as an extra feature, so yes, I would be surprised if you can provide a citation that the Atlantic lock was not effective at all.
 
In theory they are. Our barns have huge bolts across the doors (admittedly constructed early last century), together with a padlock when we are not around. Bolts have always been effective in securing barn doors. The problem with property is potential intruders. But the Atlantic bolt on the Estonia was simply there as an extra feature, so yes, I would be surprised if you can provide a citation that the Atlantic lock was not effective at all.
Do your barns often go to sea in a storm?
 
In theory they are. Our barns have huge bolts across the doors (admittedly constructed early last century), together with a padlock when we are not around. Bolts have always been effective in securing barn doors. The problem with property is potential intruders. But the Atlantic bolt on the Estonia was simply there as an extra feature, so yes, I would be surprised if you can provide a citation that the Atlantic lock was not effective at all.
Why are you talking about barn doors? Seriously, waffling about bolts and locks on barns is supposed to demonstrate what, exactly?

Anyway:

Vixen said:
You do not know your physics. The Atlantic lock is a mere afterthought. The tension is borne almost entirely by the side locks. And the JAIC does blame the one wave for causing the whole shebang to fail. I am glad that even you can see that is simply not credible.
As a bonus, this is evidence that you have actually claimed that the JAIC blamed the sinking of the Estonia on "a big wave".

Vixen said:
The atlantic lock was added as an accessory lock to make people feel safer when sailing, erm, the Atlantic, hence its name.
According to you, the Atlantic lock was a mere afterthought added for the purpose of making people feel safer. I don't think you ever provided any evidence for that claim, and there's no point in asking for it now, because you're definitely not going to provide said evidence.
 
That's correct procedure.


No, this is an unfair characterization of the process. When the strictly evident sources of flooding do not support the observation of the time taken for the ship to founder, it is not only appropriate but required to look for other sources of flooding.

You seem to think the JAIC was remiss in failing to consider the hole later observed, or the prospect of any such hole. However there was no evidence of anything with which the ship could have collided, and no evidence that there was any collision damage observed on the surface. The window hypothesis requires no unreasonable claims or assumptions. The surface collision theory requires many, and is therefore rejected.


An assumption so well supported by prior experience that it needs no further justification.


False. The dimensions of the opening were considered in a flooding model that shows the flood rate from those specific windows was in the vicinity of the portion of the average flood rate not supported by direct evidence. This is sufficient evidence to consider the window hypothesis probable.


No, you don't get to say one shipwreck is anomalous just because it's not like another shipwreck.


No, that's not how science works in the field of forensic engineering investigations. Investigating happenstance events is not generally aided by classical methodology.

In any case, what are we to do with all the numerous conspiracy theories you've proposed as viable alternatives to JAIC's findings? Are they testable in the way you demand should have been done here? Were any of them tested to that same standard of proof you say is required? Are you not applying a double standard?

You made a huge deal out of Prof. Amdahl, who you allege computed the size of vessel that would be needed to poke Evertsson's hole in the hull. You seem to consider this dispositive science, although it proceeded exactly along the same lines as JAIC's reasoning regarding the Deck 4 windows—only with far less rigor. Prof. Amdahl proceeded under the assumption given to him by Evertsson that the hole was produced by a collision with a vessel on the surface. It is certainly possible to calculate the properties of such a hypothetical vessel, but there is no evidence any such vessel existed. Thus Prof. Amdahl's findings fail not at the computational level but at the conceptual level.

In contrast, JAIC's findings here are conceptually sound because there is ample evidence that wave action is sufficient to break the glass in ship windows, ample history of it having done so, and ample evidence that the windows in question were in a position to be subject to wave action.


No. Your imagination of what proper science must be in this case is not informed by education or experience. You're just making stuff up, pretending to be an expert, and trying to foist it on your betters.

Setting up a full-scale empirical test when it is known generally that waves have the ability to break ship window glass and have done so numerous times is costly and unnecessary. Further, the parameterization of such an experiment requires values that were not measured and cannot be known with certainty. Thus any marginal result would come down to a belief in a specific resolution of the uncertain values. Therefore it just kicks the can of unknowability down the road a bit and offers no probative value. Your belief that such an experiment is necessary seems predicated on your uninformed belief that ship window glass is generally too robust to be vulnerable in this way, and that the JAIC is remiss in not believing similarly. Your belief amounts to nothing more than your typical, "Because I say so," contrary to established fact.

You really need to learn to stay in your lane.
Calm down, I am not queering your pitch. If the windows on deck 4 and five were smashed, how come the Rockwater divers had to work really hard with hammers to even gain access to the interior?

1762367603884.png


Rockwater Report.
 
Calm down
I've been calm his whole time. Kindly do not keep assuming your critics are somehow agitated or otherwise emotionally compromised.

If the windows on deck 4 and five were smashed, how come the Rockwater divers had to work really hard with hammers to even gain access to the interior?

View attachment 65537


Rockwater Report.
Your source says nothing about them having to work "really hard." It merely describes the process they decided to use to break the windows for ingress.
 
Calm down, I am not queering your pitch. If the windows on deck 4 and five were smashed, how come the Rockwater divers had to work really hard with hammers to even gain access to the interior?

View attachment 65537


Rockwater Report.
Because you have no conception of the power of the sea in a storm compared to a diver with a hammer?
 
Why are you talking about barn doors? Seriously, waffling about bolts and locks on barns is supposed to demonstrate what, exactly?

Anyway:


As a bonus, this is evidence that you have actually claimed that the JAIC blamed the sinking of the Estonia on "a big wave".


According to you, the Atlantic lock was a mere afterthought added for the purpose of making people feel safer. I don't think you ever provided any evidence for that claim, and there's no point in asking for it now, because you're definitely not going to provide said evidence.
I showed you the locking system on the Estonia. The Atlantic lock across the bottom was a bonus feature. The system should have stayed locked without it. So, suppose an intruder breaks in through your back door even though you securely locked it with deadlock and key, and a thick bolt.

So the nice policeman wants to see your back door, takes it away. Your insurers want to understand how you secured your property. The nice detective tells you the bolt was chucked in the bin. Sorry!

That's what in effect happened with the Atlantic Lock.
 
On the port or starboard side?
The ones mentioned above were aft and then there were the midship ones:

1762368853099.png

As the starboard side was inaccessible, it had to be via the port side.

1762368951631.png

The crew cabins on deck 6 were to the front of the ship, the senior captain's on deck 7, just below the bridge.

Winds were southwesterly so the waves would have been hammering the port side, initially, until the boat steered away to turn.

1762369146047.jpeg
 
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An example of when a bench test is indicated and probative comes again from Apollo 13. A major contributing cause was the failure of a thermostatic switch that controlled the tank heater. Ordinarily such a switch can be set up to open or close a circuit when a certain temperature is reached. On Apollo 13, it was hypothesized that the switch had failed-closed, presumably by arcing that occurred during a ground test. This caused the heaters to continue operating to the point of burning away the insulation on the tank's interior wiring and creating the conditions for the arc that was the precipitating event. This was the hypothesized condition of the spacecraft at launch.

A contributing cause was an ineffective test regime in the face of a design mandate to uprate all the spacecraft electronics to be compatible with 60 VDC ground power, not just the in-flight power. The switch functions in two ways: thermally and electrically. Its thermal function required it to open the circuit when an ambient temperature of 80 °F is reached. Its electrical function required it to carry a certain wattage at 60 VDC without overheating. These functions were tested separately, not together. Specifically, the behavior of a thermal trip while under operational load was never tested. You can verify a switch's thermal operation visually by watching it physically move when the appropriate temperature is reached. Therefore there's no need to add an electrical setup to the test.

In hindsight we can see the discrepancy of that testing regime. And it's tempting to say that it would have been quite easy to just add an electrical facet to the thermal test regime. But that's simply not as easy as one would think under prevailing aerospace test regimes. They are laboriously worked out, and their test protocols are rigidly specified, approved all up and down the chain of command, and rigidly adhered to. All-up or integrated/unified tests are generally frowned upon because they are harder to interpret.

To determine whether it was plausible that the thermostatic switch had failed-closed through arcing, a bench test was set up to test the switch in the manner we now realize was critical to ensuring its safety and effectiveness. A high-wattage, 60-volt DC current was sent through the closed switch and then the switch was thermally tripped to demonstrate that an arc could weld the contacts together. A separate test showed that the temperatures attained by a failed-closed heater circuit was sufficient to fail the wiring insulation.

Such a test was needed because while it was theoretically possible for switches to fail in that manner, there was no knowledge base to support any estimate of how likely that was. Hence it was useful to show that the hypothesized behavior was indeed possible. In the MS Estonia investigation, this premise was satisfied from the knowledge base of previous instances of window failures involving a large variation in sea states and window engineering.

Such a test was helpful because the parameters associated with the hypothesized failure mode could be known with precision. The hypothesis posited a failure under ordinary operating conditions, not under any anomalous condition. Thus the test could be known to duplicate the expected conditions on the accident spacecraft with suitable fidelity. In contrast, parameters affecting such a test for Estonia's windows include not just knowable factors such as the material and dimensions of the glass, but unknowable factors such as wave height at the time, height of the windows above the average sea surface, the angle of impact, and any thermal gradients that may have existed. Because these factors cannot be known or estimated with precision, the fidelity of the proposed bench test to actual conditions is unknowable and nonprobative.
 
As the starboard side was inaccessible, it had to be via the port side.
The starboard side windows were the ones closest to the water as the result of the ship's starboard list. They are the ones most likely to have been broken.

Winds were southwesterly so the waves would have been hammering the port side, initially, until the boat steered away to turn.
But with the ship listing, the port windows would likely have been above any wave action. Why are you assuming the waves could only have impacted the port side simply because that's the way the wind was blowing and that's the way the ship was pointing at some part of the disaster timeline?
 
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The JAIC report is clear on that it's windows/doors on the starboard side of the ship that they are talking about. They also calculate the list needed for them to be submerged.

One thing I haven't seen in the report (but maybe I've missed it) is that with people trying to escape from the inside areas, there might have been doors that ended up open to the outside, and where water could enter.
 

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