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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Vixen said:
Surely the windows in a passenger cruise ferry are designed to withstand high gale-force winds? Once meeting resistance from the waves - ok so the waves can backlash viciously - the waves aren't at the same m/s and force as the wind - are you claiming the windows did indeed smash without needing a simulation based on actual specs (cf MS Jan Hewliusz which not only took 1'02" (ONE HOUR TWO MINUTES [we are not utilising seconds here]) but it remained floating on the surface of the sea upside down for over five hours..? Bear in mind that vessel was in a much MUCH sorrier state than the MS Estonia.
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They aren't designed to withstand the full impact of a solid wave.
The force of wind is nowhere near that of a solid wave.

Wave shatters ferry window

 
Here_to_learn said:
There are windows and doors on all parts of the superstructure, not just on the sides...

See for example 12.6.1 in the JAIC report.
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I get that large windows and doors on a ship can indeed break fairly easily but passenger decks are generally OK with waves washing over them. Waves splash in, waves roll off, otherwise we wouldn't have promenade decks if they are so unsafe the ship will sink if there is a normal late-September storm in higher latitudes (cf Capt. Mäkelä of Silja Europa, nearby ship, who didn't think it any different from normal September storms, and was surprised not to see any detritus on the sea surface at all when his ship arrived at the scene). Capt Thornroos of Isabella echoed similar sentiments.
 
Vixen said:
I get that large windows and doors on a ship can indeed break fairly easily but passenger decks are generally OK with waves washing over them. Waves splash in, waves roll off, otherwise we wouldn't have promenade decks if they are so unsafe the ship will sink if there is a normal late-September storm in higher latitudes (cf Capt. Mäkelä of Silja Europa, nearby ship, who didn't think it any different from normal September storms, and was surprised not to see any detritus on the sea surface at all when his ship arrived at the scene). Capt Thornroos of Isabella echoed similar sentiments.
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Why do you think a 'normal' storm isn't dangerous?

Those other captains slowed down and changed to storm courses because of it.
Guess what? they didn't sink.

You have no idea what it's like to sail through a storm of sny kind or the actions taken to mitigate the conditions.
 
Vixen said:
At no juncture did I say the JAIC said the two strong waves was the only reason for the sinking.
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A search of the forum produces four pages of links to posts where you make substantially such a claim. Here is a representative example.

Vixen

Post in thread 'The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-Opened'

RolandRat said:
This is what actually happened. The Russian President of the time, Thanos, realised Sweden was smuggling the Infinity Stones away using the ferry. Thanos knew this because he saw trucks loading up the ferry in the middle of the night. These trucks were completely blacked out apart from a sign on the side that said "SUPER SEKRET SWEDISH MILITARY".

Thanos sent his henchman, Antman, to board the ferry to retrieve the stones. Now the Swedes were not stupid, they had their top agent onboard, Captain Sweden. Captain Sweden dazzled Antman with his super blonde perm then bombarded him with...
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Vixen said:
The claim its windows were smashed during the listing is simply a theory to explain the speed of sinking and the need to cling onto a belief the hull was not breached at any stage.
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The claim that windows were smashed is a perfectly reasonable theory since windows on ships are known to behave that way.

Vixen said:
In addition, re the Atlantic lock, such deadbolts are extremely effective. In the UK it is commonplace, in addition to an ordinary common or garden lock and key, to place one such bolt across the top of the back door and one at the bottom, and this makes it extremely difficult for an intruder to break in, even by force...
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No, shipbuilding and engineering is not like your garden gate.

Vixen said:
Whilst it might be an inspired guess, and who knows it might even be true...
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It's a far more plausible theory than wheeled submarines and clandestine cesium.

Vixen said:
But given eyewitness accounts and the visible deformations as per a jagged hole sketched by Brian Braidwood...
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You posted Braidwood's sketch, which looks nothing like the actual hole. Yet you seem to hold up Braidwood as a reliable witness. Further, the book from which you photographed the sketch is the one you said you couldn't copy from because of copyright concerns. You said it contained the full metallurgical reports that you are somehow better to interpret than I because you had the full report. Now that you've shown that copyright concerns do not prevent you from copying from the book, please satisfy my request to provide pictures of the reports you say it contains.

Vixen said:
The issue of whether the windows would have smashed in that manner was never physically reconstructed to the actual specifications of those on the vessel. In addition, the speed and type of sinking is more easily explained by a breach in the hull, which is why it is important to not mix up passenger decks with the hull proper in your terminology.
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It's really amusing when you try to Vixensplain my profession to me.
 
Andy_Ross said:
They aren't designed to withstand the full impact of a solid wave.
The force of wind is nowhere near that of a solid wave.

Wave shatters ferry window

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You do know - and I am sure you OUGHT to know - that the windows in the passenger cabin decks are relatively tiny portholes and heavily reinforced. Even a hammer wouldn't break them. Anyone can post misinformation of high upper deck restaurant windows smashing as somehow representing all vulnerable areas of a passenger ferry.
 
Vixen said:
I can't see anything in the Beaufort Scale about a sweary potty-mouthed storm. Are these sweary sexually aggressive storms stronger than usual storms?
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Tell me you've never operated a craft of any size on open water, without telling me you've never operated a craft of any size on open water.
 
Vixen said:
I am sorry to hear you didn't know what a hull was and how it is defined.
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If you had paid attention to my explanation, you would have immediately recognized that diagram as from the hydrodynamics perspective. Basic hydrodynamics (e.g. flow regimes, excluding transient effects such as wave action) pays attention only to the part of the vessel below the waterline and thus defines "hull" and "hull types" only by the shape of the submerged part of the vessel.

Vixen said:
I don't recall. It was the first definition of 'hull' on my browser. Do you (a) dispute this common fact and (b) do you believe wikipedia to be definitive? If yes, to the latter, then be aware the wiki meaning is often first to appear on the browser.
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And had you paid attention to my explanation, you would have properly understood the first thing that comes up on your browser to be an incomplete explanation.

Vixen said:
When it is a simple definition, word spelling or meaning, yes, in my long professional career I can confirm that, yes, I can discern when it is accurate and when it needs more searching.
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Your long professional career does not include engineering or shipbuilding. You have demonstrated you are not competent in those fields, nor in the practice of seafaring. Your insistence that experts must be wrong because their statements are not confirmed by the first thing that pops up in your browser on a simple web search is the height of arrogance.

Vixen said:
The waves would have to be pretty high to reach up to deck 5 and smash the windows. The windows in a passenger cruise ferry are designed to withstand high gale force winds so don't just smash like normal windows.
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The windows are lower when the ship rolls and settles. Wave impact is orders of magnitude stronger than wind.
 
Vixen said:
He was playing on words saying Deck 4 became the hull when water ingressed into it but the JAIC at no point said the hull had any ingression at all.
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I'm not "playing on words." I'm citing different definitions of "hull breach" as used in the field and using them appropriately to try to pierce the fog of your ongoing obfuscations.

Vixen said:
All brilliant deduction but rather post hoc ergo proptor hoc or what scientists might call the halo effect fallacy, when you make your results fit your hypothesis.
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It's really amusing when you try to Vixensplain other people's professions to them. It's entirely proper to look for probable sources of downflooding when a ship lists and then founders.
 
Vixen said:
You do know - and I am sure you OUGHT to know - that the windows in the passenger cabin decks are relatively tiny portholes and heavily reinforced. Even a hammer wouldn't break them. Anyone can post misinformation of high upper deck restaurant windows smashing as somehow representing all vulnerable areas of a passenger ferry.
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We are talking about the large windows on the higher decks.
 
JayUtah said:
If you had paid attention to my explanation, you would have immediately recognized that diagram as from the hydrodynamics perspective. Basic hydrodynamics (e.g. flow regimes, excluding transient effects such as wave action) pays attention only to the part of the vessel below the waterline and thus defines "hull" and "hull types" only by the shape of the submerged part of the vessel.


And had you paid attention to my explanation, you would have properly understood the first thing that comes up on your browser to be an incomplete explanation.


Your long professional career does not include engineering or shipbuilding. You have demonstrated you are not competent in those fields, nor in the practice of seafaring. Your insistence that experts must be wrong because their statements are not confirmed by the first thing that pops up in your browser on a simple web search is the height of arrogance.


The windows are lower when the ship rolls and settles. Wave impact is orders of magnitude stronger than wind.
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I was quite aware of that. However, it would have been helpful for the JAIC to explain the exact specifications of the windows which smashed and the logistics of the extra volume of ingress.
 
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