Shingles vaccine?

[dann]

As an example of the ever expanding preventive requirements... the shingles vaccine shouldn't be *free*. Available, yes, absolutely. But shingles is not contagious and is also not lethal. It's painful and super duper sucks, but it's not a public health risk nor life threatening.

The outrageous lies of people who don't care about the health, pain and lives of others.

Shingles vaccine tied to significant reductions in risk of dementia, heart disease, and death (CIDRAP, Oct 20, 2025)
Vaccination against herpes zoster (shingles) may reduce the risk of heart disease, dementia, and death in adults aged 50 and older, according to Case Western University research presented yesterday at IDWeek 2025 in Atlanta.
(...)
Potential 50% reduction in vascular dementia
Relative to pneumococcal vaccination, shingles vaccination was tied to a lower risk of vascular dementia (50%), blood clots (27%), heart attack or stroke (25%), and death (21%). The study authors said that the findings suggest that the shingles vaccine can prevent both infection and its complications.

So in addition to causing sometimes excruciating pain, shingles is also contagious (see previous posts) and thus a public health risk, and it kills people.

Serious side effects, right?!

Neil Stone on X, Sep 21, 2025
Hmm the shingles vaccine is DOES prevent shingles but yes has a ton of side effects
Such as lowering the risk of dementia and heart disease
Oh

https://t.co/SS9oMNkrBc

 

[zooterkin]

I had my second jab this morning. I eventually got a text from the GP saying I needed to book it, so I guess the interval here is about six months between the two. Too early to say if there's any side effects; the needle hurt a bit more than usual going in, but at the moment the arm is less painful than the other one which I had a (private) Covid jab in yesterday, and that's not very bad.

Edit: And the shingles jab was 'free', at the point of delivery, anyway.

 

[dann]

... I guess the interval here is about six months between the two. ...

NHS:

Timing between doses
28. It is important that practices offer the second dose of Shingrix® within the specified timeframes as required by the programme to ensure individuals complete the course. The GPES extract will therefore look for second doses given within these timeframes and the timing between doses will be calculated in days as follows:
(...)
b) immunocompetent cohort – six months (186 days) to 12 months (372 days), where:

• 186 days is calculated as six months x 31 days; and
• 372 days is calculated as 12 months x 31 days

CDC:

Routine recommendations
People 50 years old and older
CDC recommends 2 doses of Shingrix separated by 2–6 months for immunocompetent adults aged 50 years and older:
(...)
If more than 6 months elapsed since first dose‎
Administer the second dose as soon as possible. Do not restart the vaccine series.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Shingles is lethal. Shingles is life threatening.
But who gives a damn when it's better for the bottom line to pretend that it isn't

Shingles can be lethal in very, very rare situations. It's about as lethal as strep throat. Why do so many people feel the need to exaggerate ev everything under the sun in order to turn it into some emotionally-laden political rallying cry?

https://www.nhsinform.scot/illnesses-and-conditions/infections-and-poisoning/shingles/

It's not considered a life-threatening infection, nor is it directly transmittable - *if* you have active shingles *and* it's not being treated you can shed the virus and infect people with *chicken pox*.

I absolutely support people getting vaccinated - pretty much for anything that has a vaccine. Vaccines are great!

The only thing I object to is requiring by law that vaccines for non-lethal illnesses that don't represent a material public health risk be provided free-of-charge. All that does is increase the cost of health care in the US, and line the pockets of pharmaceutical companies.

 

[Steve]

Shingles can be lethal in very, very rare situations. It's about as lethal as strep throat. Why do so many people feel the need to exaggerate ev everything under the sun in order to turn it into some emotionally-laden political rallying cry?

https://www.nhsinform.scot/illnesses-and-conditions/infections-and-poisoning/shingles/

It's not considered a life-threatening infection, nor is it directly transmittable - *if* you have active shingles *and* it's not being treated you can shed the virus and infect people with *chicken pox*.

I absolutely support people getting vaccinated - pretty much for anything that has a vaccine. Vaccines are great!

The only thing I object to is requiring by law that vaccines for non-lethal illnesses that don't represent a material public health risk be provided free-of-charge. All that does is increase the cost of health care in the US, and line the pockets of pharmaceutical companies.

Yup, exaggeration is the rule among laypersons on both sides of the vax debate. Agree with everything else you have written.

My wife had shingles a few years ago. She said "never again!!" to that pain and got vaccinated as soon as she was eligible. I haven't quite got around to it yet.

 

[bruto]

I sort of almost agree with Emily's Cat on this one, in that requiring free vaccination probably does increase our medical costs a little, but part of that reason is not because universal vaccination is a bad idea but because our medical system is so messed up. But yes, exaggeration is a bad thing, and likely present in many arguments about this subject.

But I would also note that while plain old strep throat is rarely lethal, its close relative scarlet fever is more than a little worse, and aside from the question of "how lethal is too lethal," there is a mighty difference between strep and shingles, of course, since strep is bacterial and chicken pox viral. You can take an antibiotic for strep or scarlet fever after you've gotten it, something you cannot do for shingles. The comparative lethality of untreated diseases has little relevance when one is treatable and one is not.

 

[zooterkin]

I sort of almost agree with Emily's Cat on this one, in that requiring free vaccination probably does increase our medical costs a little, but part of that reason is not because universal vaccination is a bad idea but because our medical system is so messed up. But yes, exaggeration is a bad thing, and likely present in many arguments about this subject.

But I would also note that while plain old strep throat is rarely lethal, its close relative scarlet fever is more than a little worse, and aside from the question of "how lethal is too lethal," there is a mighty difference between strep and shingles, of course, since strep is bacterial and chicken pox viral. You can take an antibiotic for strep or scarlet fever after you've gotten it, something you cannot do for shingles. The comparative lethality of untreated diseases has little relevance when one is treatable and one is not.

There is an antiviral treatment that is supposed to help if taken as soon as the shingles starts, but it has to be almost straight away. When my partner had shingles, it was not properly diagnosed by the NHS phone service (111) over the weekend, and by the time she got seen by the GP and it was recognised it was too late to do anything apart from try to treat the pain.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yup, exaggeration is the rule among laypersons on both sides of the vax debate. Agree with everything else you have written.

My wife had shingles a few years ago. She said "never again!!" to that pain and got vaccinated as soon as she was eligible. I haven't quite got around to it yet.

I'm now 51... and I really need to go get stabbed. I talked to my doctor, and was told it's fine to get jabbed with everything at the same time, so me and my spouse will get Flu, TDaP, and Shingles all at once. I figure I'll either do it on a Friday or take a couple of days off - my immune system is going to be working overtime, which means I'll feel pretty lousy for a bit.

 

[bruto]

There is an antiviral treatment that is supposed to help if taken as soon as the shingles starts, but it has to be almost straight away. When my partner had shingles, it was not properly diagnosed by the NHS phone service (111) over the weekend, and by the time she got seen by the GP and it was recognised it was too late to do anything apart from try to treat the pain.

Yes, and I'm glad such a treatment exists. Although it may be a secondary quibble, though, I think comparing a viral to a bacterial infection is still a bit off, because there's a difference between a treatment and a cure. When I got penicillin for scarlet fever, it did not make it better or less worrisome. It ended it.

 

[dann]

Shingles can be lethal in very, very rare situations. It's about as lethal as strep throat. Why do so many people feel the need to exaggerate ev everything under the sun in order to turn it into some emotionally-laden political rallying cry?

So shingles can kill. Thank you for confirming this. And don't forget that the pain it causes can make people kill themselves.
And then there's this from post 161:

Shingles Vax Lowers Risk for Heart Disease, Dementia (Newsmax, Oct 20, 2025)
The shingles vaccine does more than just protect middle-aged folks and seniors against maddening rashes, a new study says.
The vaccine also lowers their risk of heart disease, dementia and death, researchers reported in Atlanta Sunday at IDWeek, the joint annual meeting of America’s top infectious disease professional societies.

Did you know that heart disease kills? As does dementia.

https://www.nhsinform.scot/illnesses-and-conditions/infections-and-poisoning/shingles/

It's not considered a life-threatening infection, nor is it directly transmittable - *if* you have active shingles *and* it's not being treated you can shed the virus and infect people with *chicken pox*.

The reawakened dormant virus can infect the unvaccinated with chicken pox. Treating shingles may lower the risk of spreading the infection. It doesn't eliminate it. Besides, you will have been infectious before treatment started. (Why the quotation marks?! Do they make it seem less bad to you?)

I absolutely support people getting vaccinated - pretty much for anything that has a vaccine. Vaccines are great!
The only thing I object to is requiring by law that vaccines for non-lethal illnesses that don't represent a material public health risk be provided free-of-charge.

Shingles can infect other people with chicken pox. As such, it's an illness that actually does "represent a material public health risk." When I had shingles, I might have infected family, friends (and not least their children), commuters, colleagues and students. As it is, I don't know if I did.
I don't understand* why it's so difficult for you to understand.

All that does is increase the cost of health care in the US, and line the pockets of pharmaceutical companies.

No, that is not all it does! It also lowers the costs of treating people with shingles and the ones they infect with chicken pox.
I don't think you care at all about "the cost of health care in the US." The only thing you seem to care about is the costs for your company.
Lining the pockets of pharmaceutical companies is an anti-vaxxer argument.
RFK Jr. and his anti-vaxxer and anti-science collaborators thank you.

I'm now 51... and I really need to go get stabbed. I talked to my doctor, and was told it's fine to get jabbed with everything at the same time, so me and my spouse will get Flu, TDaP, and Shingles all at once. I figure I'll either do it on a Friday or take a couple of days off - my immune system is going to be working overtime, which means I'll feel pretty lousy for a bit.

Poor 51-year-olds need to get jabbed, too.
I assume that the Freudian slip reveals your fear of sharing the fate of the UnitedHealthcare CEO. Or could it be bad conscience? Promoting free vaccines for everybody might alleviate both. Start with your colleagues.

* ETA: Sorry, I lied. I do understand.

 

[Helen]

Free vaccines is usually a good way of saving money; treating disease generally costs far more than preventing it.

 

[dann]

Yes, and I'm glad such a treatment exists.

My experience is much the same as what zooterkin's partner experienced: It has to occur to you to go see a doctor when the symptoms appear. It may not be as bad at first, so it is very likely that you can't be treated in time for it to make a difference. I didn't even recognize the symptoms the second time I got it. I thought it might be impetigo.

Although it may be a secondary quibble, though, I think comparing a viral to a bacterial infection is still a bit off, because there's a difference between a treatment and a cure. When I got penicillin for scarlet fever, it did not make it better or less worrisome. It ended it.

There are other differences: treatment, cure, prevention. I much prefer the latter. However, in the case of scarlet fever there is no vaccination. In the case of chicken pox and shingles, there is.

 

[dann]

Free vaccines is usually a good way of saving money; treating disease generally costs far more than preventing it.

Yes! It's so bloody obvious that you have to be either an anti-vaxxer or a zealous Christian nationalist be unaware of it.

For Scandinavians, it is sometimes difficult to recognize the ways things are done 'over there' – and the mentality it requires.
The USA is a foreign country: they do things differently there.

In most other countries, free vaccines are an integral part of public health care, a way of keeping people healthy and thus a way of saving money. In the USA, the illness of people is free-of-charge for the nation as well as the insurance company as long as the costs of prevention, treatment and cure are up to the people getting ill (and maybe staying ill) instead of vaccinated, treated and cured.

This is why Emily's Cat and like-minded people are focussed on the expenditures for the nation and for the insurance companies and have the attitude, when it concerns others than themselves, What's a bit of pain?! It's certainly not a "material public health risk."
Even when it actually is! (And some of those people in need of health care aren't even white or straight.)

Unfortunately, Scandinavian countries aren't free from this way of thinking. The pandemic has made it conspicuous. This year, pregnant women are no longer eligible for the Pfizer jabs, and it's been years since people younger than 65 were.

As for the chicken pox and shingles vaccines, they are currently under consideration in Denmark, and one important element of that consideration is: Will it save more money in the health-care system than it costs to vaccinate people?
That shouldn't be the primary concern, but it is.

 

[Helen]

Sweden is going to include the chicken pox vaccine (and also the shingles one, but it will take longer) in our vaccine programmes, since it will save money.

I'm really pleased, since this will also save individuals from unnecessary pain - chicken pox can be dangerous for anyone with a compromised immune system (i spent several weeks in hospital when I had it as a kid), and shingles can be horrifyingly painful and debilitating.

 

[Emily's Cat]

@dann I've presented a reasonable position, I'm not at all anti-vaccinations. I don't feel any need to deal with your abuse.

 

[dann]

"All eligible individuals ..."

NEJM Journal Watch on X, Oct 31, 2025
Real-World Performance of Zoster VaccineThe recombinant zoster vaccine was effective among Medicare beneficiaries regardless of prior vaccination status. https://jwat.ch/4hxX0Ho

Mike McKillen on X, Oct 27, 2025
If #shingles is a serious infection for older citizens why is the vaccine not provided free to us?
[When last I checked with my pharmacy it was €540]

Dee Neeson on X, Oct 27, 2025
Yes, I paid €460 last year & not a cent can be reclaimed from either the DPS or private insurance (if you have it).

Mike McKillen on X, Oct 27, 2025
Thanks Dee. The €560 I wrote should have been €460.

Dee Neeson on X, Oct 27, 2025
It wouldn’t surprise me if it had gone up!

When I got the Shingrix jabs almost two years ago, the price was €215 (DKR1,600). I recommended it to my neighbor, who got them a few months later. At that point, the price had gone up to €270 (DKR2,000).
That's capitalism for you! Supply and demand. And it's no surprise that demand rose when we found out that Shingrix offers some protection against dementia. So it follows the logic of capitalism that the price goes up again when studies show that it also offers protection against heart disease* and postpones death*. According to the ideology of capitalism, when more is produced, production costs fall, and then prices are supposed to fall.
But that is not how capitalism works in the real world.

* Not surprising, really, since:

Shingles associated with increased risks for cardiovascular disease (National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute, Dec 12, 2022)
After analyzing data from more than 200,000 adults, researchers found those who had shingles had a nearly 30% increased associated risk for experiencing a future cardiovascular event, such a heart attack or stroke. The research was partially supported by NHLBI and published in the Journal of the American Heart Associationexternal.

 

[Rolfe]

There is an antiviral treatment that is supposed to help if taken as soon as the shingles starts, but it has to be almost straight away. When my partner had shingles, it was not properly diagnosed by the NHS phone service (111) over the weekend, and by the time she got seen by the GP and it was recognised it was too late to do anything apart from try to treat the pain.

As I recounted early in the thread, I was lucky. I was on holiday in London and felt unwell on the Thursday evening. On the Friday I gradually realised I had a strange rash on my left side, distribution suspiciously like shingles. But I wasn't firing on all cylinders. Mid-afternoon I asked my friend to look at the rash and she said, looks like shingles. I said, rather lazily, well I'll see what it's like in an hour. She said, it's three o'clock on the afternoon of the Friday of a bank holiday weekend. I think you need to do something now.

So I went to the first-aid station of the conference centre where were were attending an event, and after a bit of them wittering about bed bugs and allergies and me saying, "but the distribution of the lesions..." they gave me the address of a nearby hospital that had a walk-in GP centre. I walked to a minicab office nearby, they took me to the hospital, I was seen fairly quickly, and as soon as I was able to give them the address of my GP in Scotland everything opened before me, absolutely free. I got a prescription for acyclovir, and got it filled at a pharmacy on the way back to the conference centre. I took the first pill within 90 minutes of first seeing the rash.

I still felt a bit unwell for a week or so, but it cleared up very quickly and with no after-effects. Total cost to me, the minicab fare.

This happened in 2014. Ten years later I was positively hounded by the vaccination co-ordination unit in Melrose to have two shots of the Shingrix vaccine, regardless of having had shingles already. I did as I was told and rocked up where and when instructed. Total cost to me, zero. Sometimes it all works as it should.

 

[dann]

... regardless of having had shingles already. ...

People shouldn't rely on the idea that getting shingles twice is extremely rare.
I have already mentioned that I had it twice. The first time was probably due to undiagnosed food allergies. The second time, ten years later, the reason was probably work-related stress.

How likely is it to get shingles twice? (National Council of Aging, Oct 7, 2025)
Most adults only experience one episode of shingles, but recent studies show that roughly 1.2% to 9.6% of people may have a recurrence. This percentage is even higher in those with weakened immune systems—up to 18%.

Among the "factors that can impact shingles recurrence" are "High levels of stress and anxiety".

And nowadays, COVID-19 wreaking havoc with the immune system makes shingles even more likely to (re)occur:

COVID-19 may increase the risk of shingles for some, Japanese study finds (Nov 11, 2025)
Newly analyzed data from Japan adds to the evidence that COVID-19 may increase the risk of shingles.
The findings come from a case series of nearly 400,000 Japanese patients who were diagnosed with COVID-19 between January 2020 and January 2023. The investigators found that those patients had a higher incidence of shingles for a full six weeks after being infected with the SARS-CoV-2 virus. The findings were reported in the International Journal of Epidemiology.

See also post 949 in The One Covid-19 Science and Medicine Thread.

 

[zooterkin]

I had my second jab this morning. I eventually got a text from the GP saying I needed to book it, so I guess the interval here is about six months between the two. Too early to say if there's any side effects; the needle hurt a bit more than usual going in, but at the moment the arm is less painful than the other one which I had a (private) Covid jab in yesterday, and that's not very bad.

Edit: And the shingles jab was 'free', at the point of delivery, anyway.

Just to follow up on this; whether it was related to one or both of the jabs or not, I had difficulty sleeping for a few days afterwards. Both arms were slightly sore, but not really painful, so I don't know if that was it or just my body was slightly 'off' as a result of the injections; it took longer than usual to fall asleep, then I woke up in the middle of the night and couldn't get back asleep again. Back to normal after about four days, and no other side-effects that I noticed.

 

[Rolfe]

People shouldn't rely on the idea that getting shingles twice is extremely rare.
I have already mentioned that I had it twice. The first time was probably due to undiagnosed food allergies. The second time, ten years later, the reason was probably work-related stress.

Among the "factors that can impact shingles recurrence" are "High levels of stress and anxiety".

And nowadays, COVID-19 wreaking havoc with the immune system makes shingles even more likely to (re)occur:


See also post 949 in The One Covid-19 Science and Medicine Thread.

You are of course quite correct. I had read that it was rare for someone to get shingles twice unless they were immunosuppressed, but several people have explained to me that this is not the case. A GP friend said, if your first bout happens when you're fairly elderly you probably won't get another in your lifetime, but you were only 60, plenty time left to get it again.

I got the vaccine.