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Does 'rape culture' accurately describe (many) societies?

Darat said:
The current situation is that the porn that was described in your quotation is illegal, it is prosecuted when cases can be made, people go to prison. I can't think how clearer as a society we can be that we find such porn not only wrong but abhorrent.
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Why is it abhorrent?
 
Poem said:
Tracey Sweet is quoted as saying there is a huge market for porn that looks underage. In case you don't know, she is (or was) a porn star.
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One cherry-picked quote. There is also, in case you didn't know, a huge market for porn featuring older women. That's because there's a huge market for porn featuring women of all ages. I don't see you complaining about granny porn, about the harms it does to the over-70 year olds.

Poem said:
I don't care if the film was made by Christians or the Free Speech Coalition - she is corroborating what others have been saying whom I have quoted. Remember Dillon Rice? - captured on undercover film by Sound Investigations stating that: For the ads - the dudes that do the most conversion rates are guys that look 15.
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Yeah, everyone of them motivated by an anti-porn bias, which has only ever had a religious basis.

Poem said:
You need to quit making these vacuous assertions about religion and ignorance. You lost your credibility when you declared Pornhub as reputable and law-abiding.
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You need to stick to the topic and not make vacuous ad hominem attacks.
 
arthwollipot said:
One cherry-picked quote. There is also, in case you didn't know, a huge market for porn featuring older women. That's because there's a huge market for porn featuring women of all ages. I don't see you complaining about granny porn, about the harms it does to the over-70 year olds.
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GILF!! GILF!!

I know perfectly normal people that supplement their income through their own personal porn channel. Does Poem want to stop them from making a living?
arthwollipot said:
Yeah, everyone of them motivated by an anti-porn bias, which has only ever had a religious basis.
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Yep. Stone them! I challenge anyone to read Leviticus from beginning to end and then tell me that porn is worse.
 
arthwollipot said:
One cherry-picked quote. There is also, in case you didn't know, a huge market for porn featuring older women. That's because there's a huge market for porn featuring women of all ages. I don't see you complaining about granny porn, about the harms it does to the over-70 year olds.
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What else does ban all porn mean?
If I want to bring up porn that features actors looking underage I will. Is it "abhorrent"?
arthwollipot said:
Yeah, everyone of them motivated by an anti-porn bias, which has only ever had a religious basis.
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Dillon Rice (Pornhub employee) is motivated by an religious anti-porn bias? You should spend a bit more time reading what I posted.
arthwollipot said:
You need to stick to the topic and not make vacuous ad hominem attacks.
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Ad hominems are about unrelated stuff. Your continuing trust in Pornhub is very relevant...and yet you bring up bias?
 
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Poem said:
Dillon Rice (Pornhub employee) is motivated by an religious anti-porn bias?
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All arguments against porn are rooted in religious anti-porn moralism, not necessarily all people who make those arguments. You can make a religiously moralistic argument against porn without being particularly religious yourself. You heard the argument from someone, who heard it from someone, who heard it from someone. All arguments against porn have their origin in religious morality.
 
arthwollipot said:
All arguments against porn are rooted in religious anti-porn moralism, not necessarily all people who make those arguments. You can make a religiously moralistic argument against porn without being particularly religious yourself. You heard the argument from someone, who heard it from someone, who heard it from someone. All arguments against porn have their origin in religious morality.
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Neither Rice nor Sweet were making anti-porn arguments; they were stating facts (as they saw them anyway). The point I was making echoed theirs - such material is very popular...despite what some here are suggesting to the contrary. You rubbished the documentary without even giving it a chance. Shall we rubbish EVERYTHING you say because of your bias?

You are arguing that Darat's abhorrence over porn that suggests underage sex has a religious root? Radical feminists too?
 
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arthwollipot said:
All arguments against porn are rooted in religious anti-porn moralism, not necessarily all people who make those arguments. You can make a religiously moralistic argument against porn without being particularly religious yourself. You heard the argument from someone, who heard it from someone, who heard it from someone. All arguments against porn have their origin in religious morality.
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This might be worth exploring.

How far are you taking this? Are you just talking about porn itself or sex in general? Are you suggesting that anyone who takes a moral stance regarding sex is doing so because of a religious root? (I assume, based on the posts of yours that I have read, that such a root is in your opinion a thoroughly irrational one.)

I'll ask again: porn that features actors looking underage (as an example, I'll go with the one I was referencing with Darat - Bonnie Blue and her classroom orgy - see The Guardian) - is it "abhorrent"?

The documentary also includes footage of Tia Billinger, whose stage name is Bonnie Blue, in a classroom preparing to film an orgy with a group of models dressed in school uniform; the performers acknowledge that they have been selected because they look very young.

You previously defended porn of this type - you focused on the fact that the actors are all of legal age - all over 18s whilst ignoring any other considerations. And that is why I posted that documentary - it features (blurred) footage so that we know what we are talking about (in terms of age optics).
 
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Poem said:
This might be worth exploring.

How far are you taking this? Are you just talking about porn itself or sex in general? Are you suggesting that anyone who takes a moral stance regarding sex is doing so because of a religious root? (I assume, based on the posts of yours that I have read, that such a root is in your opinion a thoroughly irrational one.)
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The only "moral stances" on any kind of sex or sexual subject have always been religiously motivated. It's only the religions that have a problem with sex, and then only some religions. I can assure you, as long as the sex is legal and consensual, the atheists I know have no problem with any kind of sexual subject. At worst they are "well I'm not really into that, but you do you". It's only religious people who say "you shouldn't be doing that because it's bad".

It's not an irrational opinion, it's one formed from experience. Moralising is a religious undertaking, especially where sex is concerned. It's only the religious who have problems with homosexuality or sex outside marriage, or with multiple partners. It's only the religious (and those who listen to them) who have problems with legal, regulated prostitution, and it's only the religious (and those who listen to them) who have problems with legal, regulated porn.

Don't neglect to read the important part there: legal and regulated. I certainly do have major problems with sex trafficking, forced prostitution, and nonconsensual and underage sexual activity. If you dare misrepresent me on that I will come down on you like a ton of bricks. Metaphorical bricks, delivered over the internet. I guess.

Poem said:
You previously defended porn of this type - you focused on the fact that the actors are all of legal age - all over 18s whilst ignoring any other considerations. And that is why I posted that documentary - it features (blurred) footage so that we know what we are talking about (in terms of age optics).
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There are no other considerations! What other considerations could there possibly be? I know for a fact that the actors are of legal age and are consenting to performing. They are being paid for their work. Why should I give a ◊◊◊◊ about anything else?

You are aware, of course, that just because someone is wearing a schoolgirl outfit does not mean that they are underage, look underage, or can be mistaken for being underage, right? Particularly the kind of hypersexualised "schoolgirl" outfits that tend to feature in porn?

Oh, you don't think those are real schoolgirl outfits, do you?

Also, let me introduce you to Japan. Careful, your head might explode. Japan is weird, even for me.
 
arthwollipot said:
The only "moral stances" on any kind of sex or sexual subject have always been religiously motivated. It's only the religions that have a problem with sex, and then only some religions. I can assure you, as long as the sex is legal and consensual, the atheists I know have no problem with any kind of sexual subject. At worst they are "well I'm not really into that, but you do you". It's only religious people who say "you shouldn't be doing that because it's bad".

It's not an irrational opinion, it's one formed from experience.
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To clarify - I was not asserting your stance is irrational - I was assuming that you believe the religious stance is irrational. And you have cleared that up.
arthwollipot said:
Moralising is a religious undertaking, especially where sex is concerned. It's only the religious who have problems with homosexuality or sex outside marriage, or with multiple partners. It's only the religious (and those who listen to them) who have problems with legal, regulated prostitution, and it's only the religious (and those who listen to them) who have problems with legal, regulated porn.
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Okay, so to be absolutely clear - you are saying that anyone who has an issue with their partner having sex with someone else - or watching porn content (and to be crystal clear - porn that is of someone other than their partner) is being irrational with its roots in religion?
arthwollipot said:
Don't neglect to read the important part there: legal and regulated. I certainly do have major problems with sex trafficking, forced prostitution, and nonconsensual and underage sexual activity. If you dare misrepresent me on that I will come down on you like a ton of bricks. Metaphorical bricks, delivered over the internet. I guess.
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Understood.
arthwollipot said:
There are no other considerations! What other considerations could there possibly be? I know for a fact that the actors are of legal age and are consenting to performing. They are being paid for their work. Why should I give a ◊◊◊◊ about anything else?
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Okay, you answered my question - you do not think such porn is abhorrent.
arthwollipot said:
You are aware, of course, that just because someone is wearing a schoolgirl outfit does not mean that they are underage, look underage, or can be mistaken for being underage, right? Particularly the kind of hypersexualised "schoolgirl" outfits that tend to feature in porn?
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I suspect that many porn consumers will justify themselves in such a way.
arthwollipot said:
Oh, you don't think those are real schoolgirl outfits, do you?

Also, let me introduce you to Japan. Careful, your head might explode. Japan is weird, even for me.
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Please go ahead and explain.
 
arthwollipot said:
The only "moral stances" on any kind of sex or sexual subject have always been religiously motivated. It's only the religions that have a problem with sex, and then only some religions. I can assure you, as long as the sex is legal and consensual, the atheists I know have no problem with any kind of sexual subject. At worst they are "well I'm not really into that, but you do you". It's only religious people who say "you shouldn't be doing that because it's bad".

It's not an irrational opinion, it's one formed from experience. Moralising is a religious undertaking, especially where sex is concerned. It's only the religious who have problems with homosexuality or sex outside marriage, or with multiple partners. It's only the religious (and those who listen to them) who have problems with legal, regulated prostitution, and it's only the religious (and those who listen to them) who have problems with legal, regulated porn.
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What you hear all the time about homosexuality, extramarital or premarital sex is that it is immoral. But what exactly makes it immoral? Essentially, their religion. There have been and are cultures where none of this is immoral. Cultures where 13 year olds lean about sex from adults. Ever been to Polynesia?
 
Poem said:
Okay, so to be absolutely clear - you are saying that anyone who has an issue with their partner having sex with someone else - or watching porn content (and to be crystal clear - porn that is of someone other than their partner) is being irrational with its roots in religion?
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You seem to enjoy bringing this up even though it's been explained in detail already that what Arth et al refers to here is when people have an issue with someone else's relationship involving sex with someone else - or watching porn content.

There are hundreds of factors behind what an individual is comfortable with in their own relationship.
 
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Lithrael said:
You seem to enjoy bringing this up even though it's been explained in detail already that what Arth et al refers to here is when people have an issue with someone else's relationship involving sex with someone else - or watching porn content.

There are hundreds of factors behind what an individual is comfortable with in their own relationship.
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Where?
 
Poem said:
Okay, so to be absolutely clear - you are saying that anyone who has an issue with their partner having sex with someone else - or watching porn content (and to be crystal clear - porn that is of someone other than their partner) is being irrational with its roots in religion?
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No, I'm not saying that at all, which should be obvious but I guess here we are. I'm saying that anybody saying that nobody should be having sex outside marriage or watching porn - and trying to legislate against it - is being irrational, and that irrationality has its roots in religion. What you personally do legally and with informed consent is entirely up to you and none of anybody else's business.

Why do you not get that I'm not speaking personally about individuals?

Poem said:
Please go ahead and explain.
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Explain what? That the "schoolgirl" outfits that you see in porn are costumes, and not what you would actually see girls wearing at school? Or explain how Japan is weird? Sorry, on that last one I have no rational explanation.
 
arthwollipot said:
No, I'm not saying that at all, which should be obvious but I guess here we are. I'm saying that anybody saying that nobody should be having sex outside marriage or watching porn - and trying to legislate against it - is being irrational, and that irrationality has its roots in religion. What you personally do legally and with informed consent is entirely up to you and none of anybody else's business.

Why do you not get that I'm not speaking personally about individuals?
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Could be my bad, but I am still not 100% clear. Are you saying that (and I know you have referred to a polyamory relationship but let's assume just a couple for the moment - and call them A & B) - are you saying if B wants to watch porn and/or have sex with C-Z, it is ultimately actually none of A's concern? What B is doing, as you said, is entirely up to you them and none of anybody else's business. If A disapproves, then I infer that you think they are doing so because of a religious root?
arthwollipot said:
Explain what? That the "schoolgirl" outfits that you see in porn are costumes, and not what you would actually see girls wearing at school? Or explain how Japan is weird? Sorry, on that last one I have no rational explanation.
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The latter...though I have done some research now.
 
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