General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

"...considered morally reprehensible" -- shadowdweller remarks about the use of 'wasps' by the IDF, and my quick and dirty explanation for why it's done.

The entire morality of this conflict is insanely off the rails.
Nobody is going to come out of it smelling like a rose.
We may even be treated to an ICC criminal trial of Yoav Galant.

POTUS is threatening to directly intervene in Gaza, although I cannot fathom what he has in mind if the condition he insists upon isn't happening (disarming HAMAS). What does he imagine the USA can do against HAMAS in Gaza that the IDF already hasn't? (HAMAS is not going to relinquish their weapons voluntarily, that seems apparent).
 
theprestige said:
You asked. You knew my answer would be based on the premises that Hamas is engaging in an immoral war of aggression, that Israel is justified in seeking their destruction by force, that Hamas is not justified in resisting their own destruction, certainly not by embedding themselves in a civilian population so that they can continue their immoral war without substantial consequences to them, and that Hamas is therefore to blame for any civilian deaths arising from them receiving the consequences they deserve for continuing their immoral war.
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So what about you, @theprestige? If you're still around. What do you think about the Mosquito Protocol? The reported use of involuntary Palestinian civilians by the Israeli military to scout out dangerous areas for enemy combatants and explosives? Reportedly including individuals of less than 18 years of age as well as the elderly.

If civilians die from such tactics, would you still consider Hamas to be primarily at fault?
 
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theprestige said:
I'm sure Hamas will provide one soon enough.


Military-civilian dual use infrastructure. You don't begrudge Ukraine shwacking civilian buildings being used by orcs. You don't begrudge Ukraine going after Moscow's power and rail infrastructure.

But when Israel does much the same thing, to get at Hamas, suddenly it's the most evil thing a belligerent can do. Never mind that Hamas set their own civilians up this way, precisely so they could weaponize your outrage. What's it like being an Iranian agent?
Click to expand...

Personally, I don't think that just because a genocidal terrorist group does something, that the Israeli government gets a free pass to do the same.

And a lot of what Israel had destroyed was not dual use.
 
webfusion said:
POTUS is threatening to directly intervene in Gaza, although I cannot fathom what he has in mind if the condition he insists upon isn't happening (disarming HAMAS). What does he imagine the USA can do against HAMAS in Gaza that the IDF already hasn't? (HAMAS is not going to relinquish their weapons voluntarily, that seems apparent).
Click to expand...
Trump is very much likely to make things worse if he does anything at all. Most probably he cares mostly about publicity stunts that he can use to score political points with at home or to solicit money from somehow; or try to claim that he single-handedly fixed the entire situation. But unfortunately history has shown that he's easy to manipulate or buy off by a potentially hostile foreign power. He's entirely capable of trying to extort favors or gifts in exchange for continued US aid. I presume that Likud, the IDF, and/or any other relevant political or military bodies are at least intelligent enough not to trust him with any state secrets.

FWIW, I'm sorry about him. I tried my personal best to keep him from office in this country. But I'm only one person among many and the downside of democracy is that the public has the right to make bad choices...
 
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webfusion said:
From a humanitarian standpoint, it makes sense to evacuate 1.5-million away from their distressed situation.
All over the planet, refugees flee war zones. It's actually pretty common.
Why would Gazans be any different? Get 'em to a safe place, and leave Gaza to the cockroaches and flies and maggots. (With sewage treatment disabled, I can only imagine the stench of raw effluents in Gaza these days.)

It makes little sense to restrict Gazans to remain within a moonscape.
That just seems inhumane....
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I agree, move them to the Negev.

Since Israel is responsible for destroying all of their civilian infrastructure they should be the ones to take responsibility for their care while Gaza is rebuilt.

Otherwise your call to transfer them to some other country is just Nazi ethnic cleansing.
 
HAMAS is responsible for bringing about the destruction of civilian infrastructure.
It's a feature of their program, not a bug.

Israel agreed to allocating segments of the Negev Desert along the Sinai border as part of the plan for an expanded Gaza that was introduced by the Americans in 2020. (See: Negev Forum)
Nothing came of it. Palestinians refused to consider that plan. Perhaps because it would lead to a peaceful resolution?

Well, here we go again, almost the same parameters, this time without maps.
www.whitehouse.gov

The Trump Declaration for Enduring Peace and Prosperity

We, the undersigned, welcome the truly historic commitment and implementation by all parties to the Trump Peace Agreement, ending more than two years of
www.whitehouse.gov www.whitehouse.gov

It all sounds so peaceful and pleasant.

As for the Negev being made available to HAMAS (which is embedded now among civilian population, and will obviously move wherever they move) --- that seems highly ridiculous on its face.
www.israelnationalnews.com

Knesset holds emergency session: 'Enemy is arming itself from within'

Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee holds urgent meeting following rise in weapons-smuggling from Egypt, MK Tzvi Succot warns of 'existential threat.'
www.israelnationalnews.com www.israelnationalnews.com
 
Andy_Ross said:
Trump on Hamas: They did take out a couple of gangs that were very bad. They did take them out and killed a number of gang members. That didn't bother me much to be honest with you. That's okay. A couple of very bad gangs.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1978166354936287305
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The obvious lack of knowledge and inability to understand the politics of Gaza is Trump's obvious weakness.
When he calls these local militias "very bad gangs" -- based on what? Bad for who? They are formed within clans, who want some measure of relief from HAMAS control.

This informative article would have explained everything to Donald Trump in three minutes of reading it.
However, he doesn't read. Not books, not articles, not briefing papers, not even the Sunday Funnies.

theconversation.com

Hamas is battling powerful clans for control in Gaza – who are these groups and what threat do they pose?

Many clans and gangs are taking advantage of a security vacuum in Gaza to reassert their authority – some backed by Israel.
theconversation.com theconversation.com
 
Andy_Ross said:
So what is your solution to Hamas being 'embedded'?
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HAMAS will always be embedded, there's no way around it. The radical Islamic fundamentalism in Palestinian society is not something you can erase. However, when that Islamic fervor is combined with force of arms and organized into militarized groups, that religious/cultural segment become dangerous to Israel, and creates internal problems for most Gazans who aren't ultra-religious.

The most important thing currently is to get HAMAS to disarm.
This is part of the ceasefire agreement, it is what the POTUS demands, it's what governments worldwide have been demanding.
www.ynetnews.com

Talks begin with Hamas in Egypt, which wants 10,000-soldier Palestinian force in Gaza

Israel and the terror group discussing second phase of ceasefire, as mediators hope to fill the Strip with Palestinian security personnel trained in Egypt and Jordan, a move that the government is expected to oppose; Wall Street Journal reports Arab governments wary of sending forces to Gaza to...
www.ynetnews.com www.ynetnews.com

I want to see what Trump has in mind when he declares that that disarmament must be commenced, OR ELSE!
 
webfusion said:
HAMAS will always be embedded, there's no way around it. The radical Islamic fundamentalism in Palestinian society is not something you can erase. However, when that Islamic fervor is combined with force of arms and organized into militarized groups, that religious/cultural segment become dangerous to Israel, and creates internal problems for most Gazans who aren't ultra-religious.

The most important thing currently is to get HAMAS to disarm.
This is part of the ceasefire agreement, it is what the POTUS demands, it's what governments worldwide have been demanding.
www.ynetnews.com

Talks begin with Hamas in Egypt, which wants 10,000-soldier Palestinian force in Gaza

Israel and the terror group discussing second phase of ceasefire, as mediators hope to fill the Strip with Palestinian security personnel trained in Egypt and Jordan, a move that the government is expected to oppose; Wall Street Journal reports Arab governments wary of sending forces to Gaza to...
www.ynetnews.com www.ynetnews.com

I want to see what Trump has in mind when he declares that that disarmament must be commenced, OR ELSE!
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So no solution?
 
lionking said:
No comment about Hamas I see. They just executed seven Gazans. They have never wanted peace and never will.

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got nothing to do with the Ceasefire Deal, unlike Israel blocking aid, which very much does.

This is not a Popularity Contest; it's about whether either side can stick to the deal for even a day, and, as I said days ago, who is the arbiter to decide whether the deal was broken, and how the situation can be remedied.

Anyone who wants this extremely pro-Israel deal to succeed should be horrified that Israel not only can decide that the other side broke the deal, but also what the appropriate response should be - the Trump Deal might not exist at all for level of commitment Israel is giving it.
 
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Andy_Ross said:
So no solution?
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I'm surprised people assume there always is a solution to everything. Life isn't a game that someone designed so there's a winning condition if you just try all the possible inputs until you get it right. Sometimes there is no good choice in the options available, and sometimes there is no path to success.
 
Is this why they closed the aid crossing?

Body returned by Hamas not a hostage, says Israel

The Israeli military says one of the bodies handed over by Hamas last night "does not match any of the hostages".

It says this is following examinations at the National Institute of Forensic Medicine.

"Hamas is required to make all necessary efforts to return the deceased hostages," it says.

www.bbc.co.uk

Israel says one of the bodies returned by Hamas is not a hostage

The fourth body of an unidentified person was brought back to Israel overnight alongside hostages Uriel Baruch, Tamir Nimrodi and Eitan Levy.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
 
Andy_Ross said:
So no solution?
Click to expand...

Correct.
Only containment. Only quarantine.
More fencing, more buffer zones, more remote surveillance & more HUMINT spies, more imposition of deprivations and restrictions, more arrests, more extra-judicial exterminations, and absolutely more diplomatic/financial pressures.

The Israelis are not interested in another Gilad Shalit-type situation, which dragged on for 5 years.
(and then there's the Hadar Goldin file, since 2014).

TragicMonkey gets it.

Israel fought a war, due solely to HAMAS actions.
The war's outcome is on HAMAS, completely.
They hold 100% responsibility.

(See: Pearl Harbor)
 
webfusion said:
Correct.
Only containment. Only quarantine.
More fencing, more buffer zones, more remote surveillance & more HUMINT spies, more imposition of deprivations and restrictions, more arrests, more extra-judicial exterminations, and absolutely more diplomatic/financial pressures.

The Israelis are not interested in another Gilad Shalit-type situation, which dragged on for 5 years.
(and then there's the Hadar Goldin file, since 2014).

TragicMonkey gets it.

Israel fought a war, due solely to HAMAS actions.
The war's outcome is on HAMAS, completely.
They hold 100% responsibility.

(See: Pearl Harbor)
Click to expand...
Maybe they need a final solution to the problem
 
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