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Wow, UK has lost freedom of speech

Thermal said:
Herc, think of it this way: the overt act is not illegal. The intent and effect it causes are illegal. Burning a Koran might mean nothing at all to you or I. But to some people, it causes great distress and/or they feel threatened. The act of burning a Koran is not illegal. Menacing the intended recipient is the illegal part. The Koran is incidental to that.
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The problem is that some people believe that burning a Koran (or a Bible or an American Flag) is incitement to violence, and they carry out violence in response to it. Like this guy:

smartcooky said:
Moussa Kadri, Muslim, carries out a brutal and vicious attack while carrying a knife, on a man who is legitimately protesting against th attacker's religion - plead guilt and gets a suspended sentence
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Hercules56 said:
As long as I do not threaten violence, I should have EVERY right to stand on the sidewalk and yell at people to not get an abortion, a vaccine, or have their wisdom teeth removed.
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You are defending your right to harass people. Okay then. Does that include people in bathrooms whom you think might be transgender?

Darat said:
Who said he was harassing anyone?
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Again, such activity can arguably be viewed as harassment.

You don't get to say whether someone is being harassed or not. The person who is being harassed gets to say it. If a woman has been raped and humiliated and they're entering an abortion clinic - something that's hard enough in any circumstances, some guy standing at the front door praying in their face and calling them a whore and a murderer, even at a reasonable volume, even if they're not holding up signs with disgusting and gross photographs of aborted foetuses - which is something that abortion clinic harassers definitely do - you don't get to say that that's not harassment.

It's so that vulnerable women can access essential health services without facing this kind of humiliating treatment that exclusion zones exist in the first place.
 
junkshop said:
Is this a thing that happens? I've certainly not come across this. Surely you wouldn't be making up really ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ dumb strawman arguments, not a poster of your calibre?

No, it must be that my naivety and innocence have blinded me to the disapproving glares of the vegans.
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It's happened in the US from time to time. I'm sure the UK has its own assortment of public scolds, who are free to scold others in public, except that abortions of convenience have special pleading for some reason.

ETA: Actually a quick web search turns up several instances of vegans and animal rights groups protesting outside UKian restaurants, including in ways that seem to me like exercises of free speech, but by the standard endorsed in this thread should be considered crimes.
 
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arthwollipot said:
...You are defending your right to harass people. Okay then. Does that include people in bathrooms whom you think might be transgender?



Again, such activity can arguably be viewed as harassment....
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I have adjusted my view on this slightly.

I believe as long as you comply with volume regulations and are not yelling and cursing at people and calling them murderers, you should have every right to be on the sidewalk 10' from an abortion clinic, telling people not to abort.

Yes, as long as you do it with some basic civility you should be allowed to protest right by an abortion clinic ON PUBLIC property.

Expressing controversial and offensive opinions is not inherently harassment.
 
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theprestige said:
It's happened in the US from time to time. I'm sure the UK has its own assortment of public scolds, who are free to scold others in public, except that abortions of convenience have special pleading for some reason.
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Oh, well that's some stone-cold irrefutable evidence right there. Yup, I'm utterly convinced. Definitely not a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ dumb strawman argument that you made up.

Whew!
 
Hercules56 said:
The cop was violating his human rights. So the man justifiably was explaining his behavior.
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We're discussing the UK, so it is important that you get the terminology right.

We don't have 'cops' here, we have copper-nobs, coppers, bobbies, pigs, peelers, ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ ◊◊◊◊ ◊◊◊◊◊, running dog lackeys of the capitalist conspiracy, monk-feelers, blue-bottles, the fuzz, the wisp, the jam, pink sunshine, ◊◊◊◊-bastards, ◊◊◊◊◊, the ◊◊◊◊◊, the ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ ◊◊◊◊◊, the rozzers, the razzers, the rizzers, the squonck, the slime, constables, hockneys, da vincis, batteries, knobs and twatty-twats.

That is all.
 
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arthwollipot said:
When those "controversial and offensive" opinions are deliberately expressed with the purpose of shaming and humiliating vulnerable women seeking essential health services, it is harassment.
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So freedom of speech should be trumped by the right to not feel shame?

Wow.

"People of Britain, not only do you have the right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, but you also have the God-given right to not feel shame!!"

Huh.
 
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Freedom of speech should be trumped when the speech in question is a deliberate, sustained, and malicious campaign against certain kinds of people whether that be women seeking abortions, transgender people, Jewish people or people who play D&D.

Again, we're not talking about people getting offended at you saying "I don't like your hairstyle". Did you even see what anti-abortion protestors looked like before exclusion zones were introduced? They didn't stand quietly to the side. They screamed at people and called them murderers. They waved disgusting pictures of aborted foetuses in their faces. That is not reasonable. That is not sane.
 
Hercules56 said:
,

So freedom of speech should be trumped by the right to not feel shame?

Wow.

"People of Britain, not only do you have the right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, but you also have the God-given right to not feel shame!!"

Huh.
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Point the first: feeling shame and being shamed are not the same thing.

Point the second: "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" is a quote from the US declaration of independence. As has been pointed out to you many, many times US stuff only applies in the US.

Point the third: rights aren't given by gods, they are negotiated and agreed upon by people.
 
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junkshop said:
Oh, well that's some stone-cold irrefutable evidence right there. Yup, I'm utterly convinced. Definitely not a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ dumb strawman argument that you made up.

Whew!
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See my edit. It's not a strawman. It's something that actually happens in the UK.

Meanwhile, you're still avoiding the actual issue: Should people be free to speak against ideas they oppose, to those who espouse those ideas, when in public?
 
theprestige said:
See my edit. It's not a strawman. It's something that actually happens in the UK.

Meanwhile, you're still avoiding the actual issue: Should people be free to speak against ideas they oppose, to those who espouse those ideas, when in public?
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I have looked at your edit. I see no reason to alter or amend my previous post.
 
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junkshop said:
Maybe, maybe not. I have expressed no opinion on that.
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Ok Bob.

junkshop said:
It is rude, and an unnecessarily c untish thing to do though.
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But it should NOT get you approached by Police to "check your thinking"...ever.

www.faircop.org.uk

Harry Miller | Fair Cop

Harry Miller, a former police officer from Humberside, was investigated by police over a poem that he posted on Twitter. A “cohesion officer” from Humberside Police telephoned Harry and told him that, while his tweets had not broken any laws, he should not to engage in political debate on...
www.faircop.org.uk www.faircop.org.uk
 
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For the information of those prattling on about “poor priest praying silently” a list of murders at abortion clinics by religious fanatics, including in my city:

en.wikipedia.org

Anti-abortion violence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Has it occurred to Hercules56 and others that it might be a good idea to keep religious fanatics some distance from abortion clinics? What are good signifiers? Harassing posters and pictures of (probably not aborted) feutuses is one. Praying is an excellent one.

These freaks need to be kept away for safety of the women attending and staff. “Free speech”, which is not absolute anywhere, be damned.
 
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junkshop said:
We're discussing the UK, so it is important that you get the terminology right.

We don't have 'cops' here, we have copper-nobs, coppers, bobbies, pigs, peelers, ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ ◊◊◊◊ ◊◊◊◊◊, running dog lackeys of the capitalist conspiracy, monk-feelers, blue-bottles, the fuzz, the wisp, the jam, pink sunshine, ◊◊◊◊-bastards, ◊◊◊◊◊, the ◊◊◊◊◊, the ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ ◊◊◊◊◊, the rozzers, the razzers, the rizzers, the squonck, the slime, constables, hockneys, da vincis, batteries, knobs and twatty-twats.

That is all.
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And yet:
 
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