Does 'rape culture' accurately describe (many) societies?

arthwollipot said:
I don't think any of us should be answering your question until you answer ours.
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I'm not the only one who thinks porn is harmful on this thread, so your 'ours' isn't everyone.
arthwollipot said:
The assumption that the earth was the centre of the universe has been held by the majority of humanity since forever too. And it was wrong. This is not an answer to the question. We don't want assumptions, we want evidence.
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We have clashed on this before and you just totally rubbished my evidence. I cited the former NPCC's lead on child protection, Ian Critchley and you called him an 'idiot'. Not your best post. And what is your evidence? That movies don't lead to more violence and that your children are doing fine?

Are porn films equal to movies such that we can infer the level of harm?

Are you against the UK's Online Safety Act? It assumes porn is harmful to children. If porn does not cause harm, why do we hide it? What are you suggesting, that we totally deregulate?
 
Poem said:
I'm not the only one who thinks porn is harmful on this thread, so your 'ours' isn't everyone.
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We know that you and others think that porn is harmful. For that I have no doubt. But is it? I'm convinced that this is a presumption.
Poem said:
We have clashed on this before and you just totally rubbished my evidence. I cited the former NPCC's lead on child protection, Ian Critchley and you called him an 'idiot'. Not your best post. And what is your evidence? That movies don't lead to more violence and that your children are doing fine?

Are porn films equal to movies such that we can infer the level of harm?

Are you against the UK's Online Safety Act? It assumes porn is harmful to children. If porn does not harm, why do we hide it? What are you suggesting, that we totally deregulate?
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Again and again, you just whine about how you are treated and what we think of your evidence. Present some quality evidence and we wouldn't. I am very open to such evidence. But what I keep hearing is you repeating others presumptions. I'm asking you to challenge your preconceptions. Why do you think that porn does damage to a viewer of it?
 
I think both sides make assumptions. Those that believe porn is harmless assume sampling bias can be sufficiently mitigated by interventions such as education.

I'd be interested to know people's opinion on AI generated child porn and whether they consider it harmless if no children or likenesses of real children were involved in making it. Would education be sufficient to mitigate any harm from a diet of AI generated child porn?
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
I think both sides make assumptions. Those that believe porn is harmless assume sampling bias can be sufficiently mitigated by interventions such as education.
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Yes, I don't presume something is bad when no good evidence has ever been presented. You could argue that is a presumption as well. I think it's the default position with everything.
Ivor the Engineer said:
I''d be interested to know people's opinion on AI generated child porn and whether they consider it harmless if no children or likenesses of real children were involved in making it. Would education be sufficient to mitigate any harm from a diet of AI generated child porn?
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I'm against all depictions of children in porn regardless if those images are generated with AI.
 
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Ivor the Engineer said:
I think both sides make assumptions. Those that believe porn is harmless assume sampling bias can be sufficiently mitigated by interventions such as education.

I'd be interested to know people's opinion on AI generated child porn and whether they consider it harmless if no children or likenesses of real children were involved in making it. Would education be sufficient to mitigate any harm from a diet of AI generated child porn?
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This will blur the lines for sure.

We should be asking ourselves if we are comfortable with people in authority, people who work with children - teachers and social workers etc - getting off on barely legal / AI generated child porn.

That is where we are now.
 
Why is this thread all about porn? Are we just completely ignoring the thread title now?

Anyway, here's an article on BBC News about Gisele Pelicot returning to court to face one of her rapists - at the end it says:

I asked her if she was surprised the Pelicot case had not had a deeper impact.

"No. Not surprised at all because, well, it's France.
Rape culture is something deeply rooted in our society. And until it's taken into consideration seriously as a matter of public policy, it won't change."
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I predict nobody will respond to this but will carry on talking about pornography.
 
Matthew Best said:
I predict nobody will respond to this but will carry on talking about pornography.
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Various posters along the way have attempted to address the thread title, but OP never responded to any of them except to shift the focus back onto porn, as a claimed contributing cause of rape (as in the posts he just linked to). He only wants to discuss porn, and the thread title is just a pretext. (And a scummy one as well, "associate the thing I don't like with something vile" the way anti video game crusaders point to certain young male mass shooters who played video games, disregarding that most young males play video games in recent decades. This serves only to trivialize actual rape, as OP has been repeatedly taken to task for earlier in the thread.)

Myriad said:
Most societies, in history, have had both some form of rape culture (whether in the guise of free rein to abuse tribal outsiders or underclasses, slavery, forced marriage, religious obligations, peer pressure in a permissive society, etc.) and have also had some form of getting-rid-of-excess-young-males culture (also in many different guises).
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An interesting discussion of actual rape culture might require a different thread.
 
Myriad said:
Various posters along the way have attempted to address the thread title, but OP never responded to any of them except to shift the focus back onto porn, as a claimed contributing cause of rape (as in the posts he just linked to). He only wants to discuss porn, and the thread title is just a pretext. (And a scummy one as well, "associate the thing I don't like with something vile" the way anti video game crusaders point to certain young male mass shooters who played video games, disregarding that most young males play video games in recent decades. This serves only to trivialize actual rape, as OP has been repeatedly taken to task for earlier in the thread.)
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Does the OP place a focus on porn regarding the title of the thread? Rape culture will be more than just porn - but it's phenomenal popularity cannot be ignored.
 
Matthew Best said:
Why is this thread all about porn? Are we just completely ignoring the thread title now?

Anyway, here's an article on BBC News about Gisele Pelicot returning to court to face one of her rapists - at the end it says:



I predict nobody will respond to this but will carry on talking about pornography.
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I think we have moved in the right direction for a little while now; it's easier for victims to come forward - as in the utterly horrifying Pelicot case; i admire her immensely - and the emphasis is no longer on the victim's behaviour, but on that of the rapist. Rape is also more broadly condemned by society, even if it is just about paying lip service for some. The more open we are about sexuality, the easier it is to discuss such thing as consent, and teach it to our kids. Things are far better now then they were when I grew up - even men find it easier to come forward when they have been raped nowadays, that hardly ever happened when I was young.
 
Poem said:
Does the OP place a focus on porn regarding the title of the thread? Rape culture will be more than just porn - but it's phenomenal popularity cannot be ignored.
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You are the OP. And yes, you have focused on porn.

Looking at specific early posts, your first post started out as if to discuss rape in general but focused on porn by its latter half. The first responding post #2 brought up a different aspect of rape culture (marital rape). You response in #3 was that that "depends where you are "while "Pornhub et al are (probably) viewed everywhere." Your focus on porn and disinterest in actual rape culture in general was clear from the outset.
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
I'd be interested to know people's opinion on AI generated child porn and whether they consider it harmless if no children or likenesses of real children were involved in making it. Would education be sufficient to mitigate any harm from a diet of AI generated child porn?
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i don’t think it’s harmless but it’s better. adults having an attraction to children is the root cause and that can’t be meaningfully addressed. still not something you want being produced i suppose, but i’d put it on the same level as a drawing

i think with many things beyond porn, including violence and other anti social activities, there’s a certain subset of people with mental illnesses, stunted emotional development, and what have you that are easily influenced. i think a well adjusted person can watch any amount of porn and be fine, as well as violent and other extreme films. i think there’s a small subset of people that are influenced by it.

i also think stuff like that being a formative experience in young children, for similar reasons, isn’t great either.

but i also think poems constant attempts to extend this to older minors and treat them all the same lacks the necessary nuance to see anyone else’s point, intentionally so.
 
dirtywick said:
i don’t think it’s harmless but it’s better. adults having an attraction to children is the root cause and that can’t be meaningfully addressed. still not something you want being produced i suppose, but i’d put it on the same level as a drawing

i think with many things beyond porn, including violence and other anti social activities, there’s a certain subset of people with mental illnesses, stunted emotional development, and what have you that are easily influenced. i think a well adjusted person can watch any amount of porn and be fine, as well as violent and other extreme films. i think there’s a small subset of people that are influenced by it.

i also think stuff like that being a formative experience in young children, for similar reasons, isn’t great either.

but i also think poems constant attempts to extend this to older minors and treat them all the same lacks the necessary nuance to see anyone else’s point, intentionally so.
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My experience is young children are not interested in porn or sexuality for that matter. But everyone develops differently. I remember seeing Playboys and playing cards that had sex images on them at a young age and couldn't have cared less. It wasn't until I was 14 or 15 that the whole world of sex became somewhat interesting. And by the time I was 17, it was almost all I thought about. Like someone flipped a switch.
 
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Matthew Best said:
Why is this thread all about porn? Are we just completely ignoring the thread title now?

Anyway, here's an article on BBC News about Gisele Pelicot returning to court to face one of her rapists - at the end it says:

I predict nobody will respond to this but will carry on talking about pornography.
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You complain yet porn is mentioned in the article you cite.

No, it's not just about porn - from that article:
"I don't think the (Pelicot) trial has changed anything at the police and judicial levels," said Emmanuelle Rivier, a lawyer also specialising in rape cases. She cited chronic understaffing, along with a lack of police training and specialisation.

We might wonder why this is so.
 
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acbytesla said:
My experience is young children are not interested in porn or sexuality for that matter. But everyone develops differently. I remember seeing Playboys and playing cards that had sex images on them at a young age and couldn't have cared less. It wasn't until I was 14 or 15 that the whole world of sex became somewhat interesting. And by the time I was 17, it was almost all I thought about. Like someone flipped a switch.
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i agree generally. but for example they say that young children that have experienced some kind of trauma may try and seek that kind of stuff out or display other age inappropriate sexual behaviors. i’m sure there’s other examples as well, generally i don’t think it’s good for young kids to be exposed to porn whether they seek it out or otherwise, just not really equipped to process what they’re seeing in a healthy way imo
 
dirtywick said:
i agree generally. but for example they say that young children that have experienced some kind of trauma may try and seek that kind of stuff out or display other age inappropriate sexual behaviors. i’m sure there’s other examples as well, generally i don’t think it’s good for young kids to be exposed to porn whether they seek it out or otherwise, just not really equipped to process what they’re seeing in a healthy way imo
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I don't think children suffer trauma because they are exposed to sexual images. But because older children or adults take advantage of their naivety. Catholic Priests have been preying on children for centuries.
 
I'm of the opinion that porn probably is harmful to most people, and especially to minors, but I haven't done any research. If someone asked me to defend that position, I'd have to admit I couldn't. If someone said we should institute new restrictions on porn due to its harms, I would expect them to explain the harm they allege, and show that it is real.

Meanwhile, I'm generally satisfied with the age-based restrictions we currently have. I also think porn falls under free speech, and therefore the more tight the restrictions being proposed, the more carefully we should proceed, and the more thoroughly we should examine the justification for them.

Poem wants to ban porn, but refuses to demonstrate any kind of risk that would justify this. So that's an absolute non-starter for me.
 
acbytesla said:
I don't think children suffer trauma because they are exposed to sexual images. But because older children or adults take advantage of their naivety. Catholic Priests have been preying on children for centuries.
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i think that’s pretty heavily dependent on the context
 
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