General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

Instead of prejudiced speculation, maybe just read the Hamas response to the Peace Deal?


Hamas issued a response to President Donald Trump’s 20-point ceasefire proposal on Friday “in the interest of stopping the aggression and genocide” in the Gaza Strip. The movement said it “values the Arab, Islamic, and international efforts, as well as the efforts of U.S. President Donald Trump, aimed at halting the war on Gaza, securing a prisoner exchange, allowing immediate entry of aid, rejecting the occupation of Gaza, and rejecting the displacement of our Palestinian people from it.” It continued:
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Within this framework, and in order to achieve an end to the war and the full withdrawal from Gaza, the Movement declares its approval for the release of all Israeli captives—living and remains—according to the exchange formula outlined in President Trump’s proposal, with the necessary field conditions in place to carry out the exchange. In this context, the Movement affirms its readiness to immediately enter, through mediators, negotiations to discuss the details.

The Movement also renews its approval to hand over administration of the Gaza Strip to a Palestinian body of independents (technocrats), based on Palestinian national consensus and backed by Arab and Islamic support.

As for other issues in President Trump’s proposal relating to the future of Gaza and the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people, these are tied to a collective national stance and rooted in relevant international laws and resolutions. They will be discussed within a unified Palestinian national framework in which Hamas will participate and contribute with full responsibility.
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arthwollipot said:
I'm not going to speak for The Great Zaganza, but yes, I'm going to deny that Hamas' only reason for existence is to destroy Israel.

The 2017 Charter makes it clear that Hamas' purpose is the establishment of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders and makes clear that they oppose the Zionist Project of aggressive colonial expansion based on seizing the properties of others, and not Israel or the Jewish people in general. The Charter does not recognise Israel but also does not call for its destruction.
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I’m not at all surprised. And I suppose you don’t also recognise this as Hamas propaganda?
 
lionking said:
I’m not at all surprised. And I suppose you don’t also recognise this as Hamas propaganda?
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Of course it is. But only if you accept that Israel is founded in, and currently carrying out, the Zionist Project. That the Zionist Project and Israel are one and the same thing.

Do you accept that?
 
arthwollipot said:
Of course it is. But only if you accept that Israel is founded in, and currently carrying out, the Zionist Project. That the Zionist Project and Israel are one and the same thing.

Do you accept that?
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What’s to accept? Israel is a reality, as much as some wish it wasn’t.
 
I really can't believe that we're here, on Page78 of a rather extensive multi-part, multi-year thread, having a review (again) of HAMAS aims.

The 2917 document (wathiqa) was a deceptive, merely cosmetic PR exercise, in an effort to create 'palatability' with Western audiences. The 1988 Charter (mithaq) is the Founding (fixed and binding) Covenant.

In any case, Ghazi Hamad, spokesman of HAMAS and member of the political bureau, in November 2023 declared that “Israel is a country that has no place on our land. We must eliminate that country (...)"

I take him at his word.

By the way, IDF is now operationally moving to ceasefire stance.
 
webfusion said:
How are you able to determine that Israel's MFA is lying about the lack of aid on those little sailboats?
I would like to see your evidence of aid onboard.
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The GSF maintains that its ships were carrying aid, including baby formula, food and medicine. In response to a Fox News Digital request for comment, GSF said it would be posting photos and videos of the aid to Instagram and Telegram.

Well, arthwollipot? Evidence should be relatively simple for you to produce, right? Just offer the links to Instagram, showing all the aid the vessels carried. We'll be waiting...
 
theprestige, my opinion is that these 'activists' are only seeking to inflame the streets of London, Paris, Copenhagen, Berlin, and beyond. And it's worked.

and

 
Hercules56 said:
Proof?
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He has no proof. There is no proof. There are no weapons aboard the Sumud Flotilla. If there were, do you not think Israel would be shouting from the rooftops right now? Oh wait, there are no rooftops left in Gaza. Do you not think that Israel would be screaming about it right now?

Meanwhile, this is how they are treating their captives:

www.theguardian.com

Israel accused of detaining Greta Thunberg in infested cell and making her hold flags

Activist tells Swedish officials she has been subjected to harsh treatment, including insufficient food and water
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

The allegation was corroborated by at least two other members of the flotilla who had been detained by Israeli forces and released on Saturday.

“They dragged little Greta [Thunberg] by her hair before our eyes, beat her, and forced her to kiss the Israeli flag. They did everything imaginable to her, as a warning to others,” the Turkish activist ErsinÇelik, a participant in the Sumud flotilla, told Anadolu news agency.

Lorenzo D’Agostino, a journalist and another flotilla participant, said after returning to Istanbul that Thunberg was “wrapped in the Israeli flag and paraded like a trophy” – a scene described with disbelief and anger by those who witnessed it.
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According to lawyers from the NGO Adalah, the rights of the crew members have been “systematically violated”, activists denied water, sanitation, medication and immediate access to their legal representatives “in clear breach of their fundamental rights to due process, impartial trial and legal representation”.

The Italian legal team representing the flotilla confirmed those detained were left “for hours without food or water – until late last night”, with the exception of “a packet of crisps handed to Greta and shown to the cameras”. Lawyers also reported instances of verbal and physical abuse.
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This, to you, is just?
 
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arthwollipot said:
He has no proof. There is no proof. There are no weapons aboard the Sumud Flotilla. If there were, do you not think Israel would be shouting from the rooftops right now? Oh wait, there are no rooftops left in Gaza. Do you not think that Israel would be screaming about it right now?

Meanwhile, this is how they are treating their captives:

www.theguardian.com

Israel accused of detaining Greta Thunberg in infested cell and making her hold flags

Activist tells Swedish officials she has been subjected to harsh treatment, including insufficient food and water
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com





This, to you, is just?
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If there were weapons on the flotilla boats, the IDF would proudly display them.
 
Hercules56 said:
If there were weapons on the flotilla boats, the IDF would proudly display them.
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And imprison the traffickers, rather than just roughing them up and letting them go. Israel would be crowing if they discovered that the flotilla was smuggling arms.

It's a ridiculous suggestion. Absolutely ridiculous.
 
How did we divert from arthwollipot's unsubstantiated claim (that the boats carried full cargos of aid to ostensibly alleviate the humanitarian sitation in Gaza --- which is the essence of his claim about the 'lies' of Israel about finding empty holds on the vessels).

Nobody claimed there was a weapons-delivery being tried by these particular ships.
The entire POINT of these flotillas is to create an open lane of sea traffic, as routine, with smaller boats coming and going out of the small fishing port (not a deepwater cargo port) unchallenged, without interdiction, without inspections. That situation would then allow larger ships to approach into the Gaza zone, and the fleet of these skiffs and yachts would be able to transit between these 'mother ships' and shore, carrying whatever they wish to smuggle in.

See: KarineA and KlosC interdiction operations.
 
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lionking said:
Non-response you mean. Agreeing to only one of the proposals is par for the course.
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Palestinians are not allowed any participation in the negotiations for their future? They are only allowed to accept what a Think Tank 100% funded by billionaire with extremely close contacts with the Israeli government has cooked up?
Not even Trump thinks that the deal should stand as it is and agrees that a lot still needs hashing out.
But he has already told Israel to stop its attacks.
If it's enough for Trump, why is it not enough for you?
 
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NoNoNo, arthwollipot, you made a specific statement that the Israelis are lying about finding empty holds.
Just because the Flotilla's 'stated goals' are all about 'providing humanitarian aid delivery' -- I have seen nothing to support that, despite a claim there's some video of their aid cargo being posted on Instagram or Telegram, which I could not locate.
I figured arthwollipot would be able to link to something concrete, considering he declared that Israel is lying, which would lead me to believe he had some proof to produce here in support of that.
I've seen videos of the empty below-decks, however, so I'm convinced there was no aid to speak of.

Instead, we've seen a pivot to 'arms shipments' ---- which was never a claim about these vessels.
Breaking a blockade involves sending an overwhelming amount of small ships, and creating a regular sea-lane that the IDF cannot stop. These guys are merely the 'advance thrusts' of a larger plan to get the Israeli Navy to ignore/allow the comings-and-goings of boats in and out of Gaza.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Palestinians are not allowed any participation in the negotiations for their future?
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Which Palestinians? The ones in Lebanon? Those in Syria? Jordan? Los Angeles? London? Qatar?
Ramallah? Who is speaking for Palestinians these days, actually? I bet you can't even name the Prime Minister of the Palestinian Authority! (Mohammad Abdullah Mohammad Mustafa)

The Great Zaganza said:
They are only allowed to accept what a Think Tank 100% funded by billionaire with extremely close contacts with the Israeli government has cooked up?
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They haven't 'cooked up' anything on their own which would appeal to Israelis, whatsoever.
It would appear that all Palestinian Think Tanks are running on empty.

The Great Zaganza said:
Not even Trump thinks that the deal should stand as it is and agrees that a lot still needs hashing out.
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What needs 'hashing out' right now is the release of all the remaining captive for ransom, and what that ransom should be. No other distractions, get POINT 4 handled immediately, and then go forward to the other 19.
Not the other way around...

The Great Zaganza said:
But he has already told Israel to stop its attacks.
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The IDF has orders to stand down, assume defensive positions, and prepare for a release in the next 72 hours of the hostages (including Hadar Goldin's remains).
By the way, I've heard that HAMAS is already making statements to the effect that Goldin is NOT going to be included, because his case is outside the scope of the current war, and his 'file' (from 2014) is a separate negotiation!

The Great Zaganza said:
If it's enough for Trump, why is it not enough for you?
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Trump is out golfing.
And ◊◊◊◊-posting that HAMAS needs to 'act quickly' (they likely won't) ---
By Monday, there may be more clarity of the situation, but the IDF isn't going to stay in a holding stage for too long, that's for damn sure.
 
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