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Wow, UK has lost freedom of speech

Planigale said:
I think this is untrue. I imagine someone who was not a believer in Islam, could buy a Quran (so technically his or hers own), they could then stand outside a Mosque on a Friday and burn or otherwise desecrate their own Quran. This would seem to be provocative behaviour likely to provoke a breach of the peace and thus a crime under English common law.

The burning of the Quran would not be the crime, the intention to provoke anger in others is the crime.

I think that anyone even possessing a knife yet alone attempting to attack someone with it would be prosecuted in England.
Unless you can verify your facts I call you out as promoting false news.
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A non-locking folding knife with a blade under three inches is legal to carry in most public places, anything larger or with a fixed or locking blade must have a lawful and timely purpose with the exception of a Sikh's kirpan. Of course even a legally cartied knife becomes an offensive weapon the moment you use, or threaten to use it as one barring self defense. And all weapons offences are dealt with seriously by the UK police.
 
Lukraak_Sisser said:
My problem with unrestricted freedom of speech is that it assumes the same form of non-existent utoptia communism assumes.
The US a good case in point. When there were a lot of varying news and media outlets that brought competing viewpoints this worked well.
But now most media is in the hands of a few oligarchs (Murdoch, Musk, Zuckerberg etc) that happily spread open lies, misinformation and outright propaganda without any counterpoint.
At the same time they aggressively police any dissent which gets removed from their media. Musk's 'freedom of speech' on twitter being a very obvious example.
IMO this is a large cause for the MAGA wins, as the myth of American freedom of speech makes a lot of people believe 'if it's on xxxx, it MUST be true, otherwise they'd not be able to publish it'
It's probably also one of the reasons said oligarchs are so upset with EU regulation, as they can be held accountable when they lie.
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No-one here is arguing in favour of unrestricted free speech... but there are a few who are arguing for what I consider to be draconian suppression of speech they don't personally agree with.

Emily's Cat said:
Any evidence that police collect in the US as part of a criminal charge must be disclosed to the defense. So if they collect DNA that can show a person innocent, they are required to give that to the defense. But they're not required to try to find evidence to prove someone innocent. They are innocent by default, and only guilt needs to be proven.

That presumption of innocence is why the prosecution is obligated to share all of their evidence, witnesses, and testimonies with the defense, but the defense doesn't have to share anything with the prosecution.
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Anyone who has been paying attention will have seen that in action in the "Rust" movie set trial when the prosecution commited an egregious Brady violation (withholding potentially exculpatory evidence from the defence).
 
junkshop said:
Your government has just declared anyone opposed to fascism to be terrorists, so kindly ◊◊◊◊ off with your bollocks.
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, but 'whatabout the UK' seems to be an increasingly desperate whataboutism from the Drumpf supporters. Which is even more ridiculous given that in the US, as you say, you can say whatever you want unless you criticize the regime, then you're a literal terrorist.
 
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No, if you criticize Trump, you are not literally a terrorist.

And no, this is not whataboutism. This is about the UK seemingly losing their respect for Freedom of Speech.

Seems in many ways we have more freedom of speech in the USA than in the UK, even with Fascist Trump at the wheel.

No American will ever go to prison for waving a Hamas, or Hezbollah, or Nazi, or Al Qaeda flag.

In the UK? You're a gonner.
 
Hercules56 said:
No, if you criticize Trump, you are not literally a terrorist.

And no, this is not whataboutism. This is about the UK seemingly losing their respect for Freedom of Speech.

Seems in many ways we have more freedom of speech in the USA than in the UK, even with Fascist Trump at the wheel.

No American will ever go to prison for waving a Hamas, or Hezbollah, or Nazi, or Al Qaeda flag

In the UK? You're a gonner.
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This is the difference between the US and the UK. In the US if you are not an American citizen then you can be detained, denied access to lawyers and possibly deported. In the UK freedom of speech applies to all. There are almost weekly marches through UK cities by people waving Palestinian flags. I would not be able to recognise Hamas, Hezbollah, or Al Qaeda flags so cannot speak for those. Unlike much of Europe nazi symbols are not illegal to display in the UK. Hamas and Hezbollah in the UK are legally defined as terrorist organisations. It is likely that publicly displaying the flags of terrorist organisations could be regarded as supporting a terrorist organisation and individuals prosecuted on that basis*. In the US persons having tattoos that are alleged to display support for a terrorist organisation have been detained and imprisoned in an overseas prison without trial. That would not be legal in the UK.

* In Glasgow you can see Fenian and Orange marches where people display symbols of terrorist organisations and aren't obviously prosecuted, although Scotland has more draconian laws around sectarian speech and songs than England. It is worth remembering the UK has had far more terrorism than the US.
 
Planigale said:
This is the difference between the US and the UK. In the US if you are not an American citizen then you can be detained, denied access to lawyers and possibly deported. In the UK freedom of speech applies to all. There are almost weekly marches through UK cities by people waving Palestinian flags. I would not be able to recognise Hamas, Hezbollah, or Al Qaeda flags so cannot speak for those. Unlike much of Europe nazi symbols are not illegal to display in the UK. Hamas and Hezbollah in the UK are legally defined as terrorist organisations. It is likely that publicly displaying the flags of terrorist organisations could be regarded as supporting a terrorist organisation and individuals prosecuted on that basis*. In the US persons having tattoos that are alleged to display support for a terrorist organisation have been detained and imprisoned in an overseas prison without trial. That would not be legal in the UK.

* In Glasgow you can see Fenian and Orange marches where people display symbols of terrorist organisations and aren't obviously prosecuted, although Scotland has more draconian laws around sectarian speech and songs than England.
It is worth remembering the UK has had far more terrorism than the US.
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It has been running through my mind pretty much all thread: the UK experience of a direct link between speech, symbols and actions, certainly throughout the 20th century, is somewhat different to certain other countries. Although mebbe ask Spain about Basque and Catalan symbols...
 
Freedom of Speech, includes the right to say annoying and hateful things without facing government persecution.

I thought our cousins in the UK got that. Apparently I was wrong.

No wonder we did this:

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Hercules56 said:
Freedom of Speech, includes the right to say annoying and hateful things without facing government persecution.

I thought our cousins in the UK got that. Apparently I was wrong.
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We kept people as property back then too, ducky. Times change, as does what we consider valuable. Now a lot of us consider indirectly stirring up violence to be right up there with directly inciting violence, because we have a better understanding of how closely they are related.
 
Thermal said:
We kept people as property back then too, ducky. Times change, as does what we consider valuable. Now a lot of us consider indirectly stirring up violence to be right up there with directly inciting violence, because we have a better understanding of how closely they are related.
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Do you ALSO consider "fighting words" to be a justification for assault and other violence?

In the USA you cannot use any kind of verbal provocation to justify violence. Even if its very well deserved.
 
Only loosely on topic and surely being discussed elsewhere, but President Trump addressed a group of military personnel and got mad that they didn't applaud his speech. He said 'if you don't like my speech, leave the room, of course you will lose your rank and future'. Apparently the dimwit Chief Executive was unaware that the military is not supposed to applaud as a matter of decorum.

Little scary, though, from a free speech POV to hear the president make such a naked threat?

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Thermal said:
Often, yes. I believe we discussed that already?
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The problem with this, is that anyone can decide for any reason that they are the victim of fighting words, justifying assault.

That's not a civil society. Its violent chaos.
 
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