The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Reformed Offlian said:
Where did you get the 18 knots, then? The highest sailing speed indicated on the diagram in question is 14 knots.
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That is at the point the bow visor fell off.

To recap:


Between 2215 and 2245 hrs (approximate) the ESTONIA was plotted by a meeting vessel, the AMBER and according to Amber's plot, the speed was then about 18.5 knots. The speed of the SILJA EUROPA was at this point 18.8 knots and further decreased to 17.6 knots between Russarö lighthouse and the Apollo buoy. After passing Osmussaar lighthouse the ESTONIA lost her land shelter and the sea conditions deteriorated. Based on experience it is believed that the sea conditions were slightly worse in the area where the SILJA EUROPA was sailing. At about 2255 hrs the Apollo buoy was abeam and the ESTONIA's speed is estimated to have been close to 17 knots. The ESTONIA passed the Glotov buoy at about 2355 hrs and, by comparing with the SILJA EUROPA, it can be assumed that her speed was now about 15 knots. This estimate is also confirmed by the trainee second officer, who has stated that the speed was between 14 and 15 knots, as well as by the third engineer who has stated that the speed was 15 knots when he started his watch in the engine control room at midnight. During the first thirty minutes after midnight the average speed of the SILJA EUROPA dropped by about one knot. When the ESTONIA reached the waypoint at 59° 20 N, 22° 00 E between 0025 and 0030 hrs, her true course was changed from 262 to 287 and the stabilisers were extended. Her average speed was between 14 and 15 knots."

Bahnhof Fact Group



You can keep on pretending you don't understand but I believe you understand perfectly.
 
Vixen said:
Because I assumed it was self evident that m/s meant wind speed, which showed on the diagram as 18 m/s SW. and that S meanet speed. The person who said they couldn't see the original 24/25 m/s and 18knot was just being obtuse I
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Who said they couldn’t see 24/25 m/s? It was the 15-18 knots they said they couldn’t see, because it’s not there, despite your insistence that that it was clearly stated in the diagram.
 
JesseCuster said:
Who said they couldn’t see 24/25 m/s? It was the 15-18 knots they said they couldn’t see, because it’s not there, despite your insistence that that it was clearly stated in the diagram.
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Yes, the speed in knots was clearly stated. It only showed the speed as of the point the bow visor fell off. This was explained so instead of accepting I did not convert m/s to knots as scurrilously claimed by another poster, the poster decided to make out it was a massive big deal he couldn't see 18 knots, rather than admit the other poster was mistaken. Given he slung a load of insults at me about being 'mensans of mensan' I assume he was determined to pretend he was confused rather than admit the other poster was wrong.
 
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Vixen said:
It is trivia because it was explained.
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No, you haven’t explained. You’ve concocted a free-form delusion complete with numbers plucked out of the air to obfuscate your way around claiming something that isn’t true and digging in your heels instead of saying, “Oops I made a mistake.”
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Very good point. How could they have drowned when they could simply twist a balloon dog into water wings or an impromptu Mae West? Answer us that, doubters.
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I specified that they were *evil* balloon animals. They would have deflated out of spite the moment somebody tried to use them as a flotation device.
 
JayUtah said:
No, you haven’t explained. You’ve concocted a free-form delusion complete with numbers plucked out of the air to obfuscate your way around claiming something that isn’t true and digging in your heels instead of saying, “Oops I made a mistake.”
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I concurred the JAIC diagram only showed one speed as of the point the bow visor fell off. However, I am still being vilified as having VERY STUPIDLY converted m/s into knots, because the poster in question who initially claimed he couldn't even see the wind in m/s, wanted to teach me a lesson, that 'you're not as clever as you think you are'.


Now I don't care if people think I am stupid, that is their prerogative but I do object to being falsely accused of having done something I did not do, just to save the face of another poster. For the avoidance of doubt, this other poster sneered that I had converted m/s into knots and that my calculations were wrong, when I did nothing of the kind.
 
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Vixen said:
I concurred the JAIC diagram only showed one speed as of the point the bow visor fell off. However, I am still being vilified as having VERY STUPIDLY converted m/s into knots, because the poster in question who initially claimed he couldn't even see the wind in m/s, wanted to teach me a lesson, that 'you're not as clever as you think you are'.


Now I don't care if people think I am stupid, that is their prerogative but I do object to being falsely accused of having done something I did not do, just to save the face of another poster. For the avoidance of doubt, this other poster sneered that I had converted m/s into knots and that my calculations were wrong, when I did nothing of the kind.
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For the record, is your current position that:

1) The figure "18 knots" appears nowhere on the JAIC diagram;
2) At no point did you ever suggest that it did?
 
Vixen said:
...Now i don't care if people think I am stupid, that is their prerogative but I do object to being falsely accused of having done something I did not do, just to save the face of another poster.
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Oh, I feel you. There's this one poster, yeah, that keeps, like, accusing others of misogyny any time they point out their errors, or like super obvious lies. Totally bogus.
 
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Reformed Offlian said:
For the record, is your current position that:

1) The figure "18 knots" appears nowhere on the JAIC diagram;
2) At no point did you ever suggest that it did?
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That is not my position at all. My position is that people are using the fact the JAIC didn't show that figure on their diagram to falsely claim I converted m/s into knots when I did nothing of the kind. Yet the person who made the bogus claim that I converted m/s into knots out of sheer stupidity ('because you think you are so clever') hasn't even been told he was the one who was wrong, as if!
 
Vixen said:
That is at the point the bow visor fell off.

To recap:


Between 2215 and 2245 hrs (approximate) the ESTONIA was plotted by a meeting vessel, the AMBER and according to Amber's plot, the speed was then about 18.5 knots. The speed of the SILJA EUROPA was at this point 18.8 knots and further decreased to 17.6 knots between Russarö lighthouse and the Apollo buoy. After passing Osmussaar lighthouse the ESTONIA lost her land shelter and the sea conditions deteriorated. Based on experience it is believed that the sea conditions were slightly worse in the area where the SILJA EUROPA was sailing. At about 2255 hrs the Apollo buoy was abeam and the ESTONIA's speed is estimated to have been close to 17 knots. The ESTONIA passed the Glotov buoy at about 2355 hrs and, by comparing with the SILJA EUROPA, it can be assumed that her speed was now about 15 knots. This estimate is also confirmed by the trainee second officer, who has stated that the speed was between 14 and 15 knots, as well as by the third engineer who has stated that the speed was 15 knots when he started his watch in the engine control room at midnight. During the first thirty minutes after midnight the average speed of the SILJA EUROPA dropped by about one knot. When the ESTONIA reached the waypoint at 59° 20 N, 22° 00 E between 0025 and 0030 hrs, her true course was changed from 262 to 287 and the stabilisers were extended. Her average speed was between 14 and 15 knots."

Bahnhof Fact Group



You can keep on pretending you don't understand but I believe you understand perfectly.
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But you said that the 15-18 knots was on the image provided. You claimed as such and repeated that claim.

So once again, VIXEN does the diagram show or mention 15-18 knots, yes or no?

If yes, where?

If no, why did you repeatedly claim it did?
 
junkshop said:
Oh, I feel you. There's this one poster, yeah, that keeps, like, accusing others of misogyny any time they point out their errors, or like super obvious lies. Totally bogus.
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You did talk down to me and accused me of having all kinds of reprehensible characteristics of the lowest kind. Yet I note you haven't told the poster who claimed I converted m/s into knots that he was wrong. You are just happy to see me unfairly vilified.
 
Vixen said:
That is not my position at all. My position is that people are using the fact the JAIC didn't show that figure on their diagram to falsely claim I converted m/s into knots when I did nothing of the kind. Yet the person who made the bogus claim that I converted m/s into knots out of sheer stupidity ('because you think you are so clever') hasn't even been told he was the one who was wrong, as if!
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Even if we take as read that you did not do such a conversion, you still explicitly claimed that the diagram showed 15-18 knots. It's there in black and white, your own words.

So explain the fact that you stated it and yet it does not show any such thing. No, I don't want you bleating about the "conversion" because I've taken as read that you are right on that matter. I do not care for the purposes of this argument what enyone claimed you did nor am I entertaining any such claims as accurate. I am only interested in two things.

Does that diagram show 15-18 knots, and did you claim it did so.
 
Vixen said:
You did talk down to me and accused me of having all kinds of reprehensible characteristics of the lowest kind. Yet I note you haven't told the poster who claimed I converted m/s into knots that he was wrong. You are just happy to see me unfairly vilified.
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You're lying again Vixen. At no point did Junkshop claim you had any reprehensible characteristics, or are you going to attempt to imply he was being racist again?
 
MarkCorrigan said:
Even if we take as read that you did not do such a conversion, you still explicitly claimed that the diagram showed 15-18 knots. It's there in black and white, your own words.

So explain the fact that you stated it and yet it does not show any such thing. No, I don't want you bleating about the "conversion" because I've taken as read that you are right on that matter. I do not care for the purposes of this argument what enyone claimed you did nor am I entertaining any such claims as accurate. I am only interested in two things.

Does that diagram show 15-18 knots, and did you claim it did so.
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Because EHocking said he was a coastguard and seemed to know a lot about shipping and shipping conditions, I assumed he would understand that S=14 doesn't mean it never did S=18. He made a big issue out of it because I believe he was being obtuse and knew perfectly well what I meant by wind speed 24/25m/s and 18 knots, max. He didn't want to admit that I did not convert the m/s into knots (for Andy Ross who doesn't need an explanation) because he was either too timid to conform the poster who claimed I converted it was wrong or he thought it would be fun to cause a huge uproar that he couldn't see a figure that said S=18.
 
Vixen said:
You did talk down to me and accused me of having all kinds of reprehensible characteristics of the lowest kind. Yet I note you haven't told the poster who claimed I converted m/s into knots that he was wrong. You are just happy to see me unfairly vilified.
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No, no, not at all. I would never be happy seeing you unfairly vilified. Fairly vilified for your lies, evasions, and other sundry dishonesties, I'm OK with that.
 
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