The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Steve said:
Agreed. That very small part of the narrative is feasible, true or not.
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Oh certainly there are 'PARTS' of it that may be and probably even are totally factual....

I think we all agree that it is almost certain that a ship called the Estonia sunk...
It it is very likely that it sank in water (and not oatmeal or jelly)

But at this point, I think we all agree (apart from one poster) that the entire fabrication/s (deliberate or not) that has been put forward by Vixen is complete nonsense, and not a single person here will 'take her word' on anything she says- it would have to be backed by independent VERIFIABLE sources before it would even be considered, as her 'technical expertise' has been repeatedly, by many posters, to be shown to be about as far from 'expert' as it is possible to get- nothing she puts forward that is 'her opinion' is worth even a single seconds thought...

Harsh, maybe, but accurate? Yes....
 
Dabop said:
Oh certainly there are 'PARTS' of it that may be and probably even are totally factual....

I think we all agree that it is almost certain that a ship called the Estonia sunk...
It it is very likely that it sank in water (and not oatmeal or jelly)

But at this point, I think we all agree (apart from one poster) that the entire fabrication/s (deliberate or not) that has been put forward by Vixen is complete nonsense, and not a single person here will 'take her word' on anything she says- it would have to be backed by independent VERIFIABLE sources before it would even be considered, as her 'technical expertise' has been repeatedly, by many posters, to be shown to be about as far from 'expert' as it is possible to get- nothing she puts forward that is 'her opinion' is worth even a single seconds thought...

Harsh, maybe, but accurate? Yes....
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Yes.
 
Vixen said:
The claim trucks were offloaded refers to the stern car ramp, not the pointy end. In any case, those two Estonian athletes who literally climbed down the car door ramp (stern was already beneath the waves, remember) said they climbed down the car door ramp, so it must have still been shut!
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Refresh our memory, did Estonia sink in calm waters? Or were there large, wind-driven waves that night?

Also, do you know how gravity and kinetic energy work, and how they can work in concert to open, and close the ramp? Only reason I ask is during the first inspection of the wreck the ramp was closed, but in this last investigation it was open. Damaged ramps seem to have a mind of their own.
 
Vixen said:
Oh for heavens sake, this is a current affairs news item, which is followed with great in these parts. Andi Meister's recent death was a news item here. In addition, Harry Ruotsalainen's theory about trucks had a double page spread in my local paper. Linus Andersson has also featured, as he lives around here. This newspaper is roughly the equivalent standard of the GUARDIAN.
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I've mentioned this twice in another thread, but you ignored it as usual, so I'm going to rephrase it as a question. Alex Jones was on the air on September 11, 2001, claiming that the attacks were orchestrated by the US government. Was he just discussing "a current affairs news item?" Or was he a conspiracy theorist who was promoting conspiracy theories?
 
Vixen said:
WHEN did it come off, as two Estonian guys who survived said they climbed down the car ramp door. They are eye witnesses. Why ignore what they said?
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Why ignore context?

The ship is sinking by the stern while battered by waves. The ramp was already damaged, and likely pushed closed by rough seas. This is not rocket science.
 
junkshop said:
His book is the sole source for the claim of Voronin being 245lbs. The claim is unverifiable, and therefore unreliable.

The whole reason for this diversion (for me, at least) into the minutiae of a trivial detail is to demonstrate the poor quality of many of the sources that you choose to rely on.
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I've been watching this whole Voronin back and forth for a while now, and even if the guy was 300lbs, so what? He got to the deck, had a life vest, was swept into the water, and pulled into a life raft. Somebody - anybody - show me a large scale disaster where all the survivors made sense. How many stories of miraculous chains of events leading to someone surviving the un-survivable does one have to read out before this Voronin guy doesn't stand out?

This is yet another limb our friend has backed herself out on only to begin sawing.
 
JayUtah said:
It may astound you to learn that many people who live in the United States know about such things as places in Europe, obscure notation for minutes and seconds, etc.
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I live in the US, and I know about places in Europe! Finland's in Europe, right? That's in Sweden or something! Or maybe Germany. Anyway, it's a place in Europe I know about. I'm sure I've spent at least a few 's and ''s reading about it.
 
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Vixen said:
The 'German Experts' you dismiss as conspiracy theorists, really are experts . . .
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So tell us, Vixen, how is it that you are perfectly fine with these experts' being allowed to criticize the JAIC report, yet you dismiss any experts who criticize the evidence against Amanda Knox and her ex-boyfriend (and Lucy Letby, for that matter) as "bent," "paid off," "hired guns," "incompetent," "ivory-tower academics," or supposedly just feeling sorry for the accused?
 
JayUtah said:
Specifically it applies to people attempting tasks in specific knowledge and/or skill domains in which they may or may not be competent regardless of their competency elsewhere. It specifically does not apply to general intelligence. Dunning and Kruger's subjects were people who were at least smart enough to get into Cornell University.
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Yes,thanks for clarifying my hasty post
 
Axxman300 said:
I've been watching this whole Voronin back and forth for a while now, and even if the guy was 300lbs, so what? He got to the deck, had a life vest, was swept into the water, and pulled into a life raft. Somebody - anybody - show me a large scale disaster where all the survivors made sense. How many stories of miraculous chains of events leading to someone surviving the un-survivable does one have to read out before this Voronin guy doesn't stand out?

This is yet another limb our friend has backed herself out on only to begin sawing.
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I've already asked Vixen and she hasn't responded as to what is her point here. Her source for how Voronin survived the sinking is a book that tells how he was helped to a lifeboat with the aid of family members, getting almost swept out to sea, pulled into a lifeboat and surviving.

So what? What exactly is the point here? How does this fit in to the narrative you're trying to build Vixen?
 
SpitfireIX said:
So tell us, Vixen, how is it that you are perfectly fine with these experts' being allowed to criticize the JAIC report, yet you dismiss any experts who criticize the evidence against Amanda Knox and her ex-boyfriend (and Lucy Letby, for that matter) as "bent," "paid off," "hired guns," "incompetent," "ivory-tower academics," or supposedly just feeling sorry for the accused?
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Don't forget Lindy Chamberlain.....
 
Axxman300 said:
Refresh our memory, did Estonia sink in calm waters? Or were there large, wind-driven waves that night?

Also, do you know how gravity and kinetic energy work, and how they can work in concert to open, and close the ramp? Only reason I ask is during the first inspection of the wreck the ramp was closed, but in this last investigation it was open. Damaged ramps seem to have a mind of their own.
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Captain Esa Makela of Silja Europa said the storm was no different from any other September storm on that route.
 
Vixen said:
Captain Esa Makela of Silja Europa said the storm was no different from any other September storm
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Context needed: was it good/accepted/safe practice to to sail a vessel designed and certified for coastal operation into deep waters at high speed during storms, be they typical for the month or not?

ETA: More succinctly ninja'd by zooterkin.
 
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