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Merged Charlie Kirk shot at Utah Valley University event. / Charlie Kirk Shot And Killed

dirtywick said:
what i find concerning is the president of the united states and officials representing the office and the government threatening cities and states with sending in the national guard against their will, and threats to people's jobs and even legal action if they say the wrong thing about charlie kirk. that's what i find concerning. i find your lack of concern about the big picture typical and i'm not interested in whatever silly axe you have to grind
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Well, it would be really nice if you'd actually ask my views instead of assuming them. At the moment, I'm extremely angry at the right wing too. I'm particularly displeased with Nancy Mace's current pogrom against Omar. I think it's unseemly for Omar to share the view that Kirk brought assassination on themself, but I don't think having an unseemly opinion merits censure and removal from committees. Free speech isn't free unless it's free for those with views you strongly oppose.
 
AmyStrange said:
I just don't believe any extremist murderer represents any specific party. They just like to kill, and anyone who encourages or condones what they do is just as evil as them, but like I keep saying, that's just my opinion.
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I don't think any extremist murderer represents any specific party either.

But many posters here absolutely believe that any extremist murderer with any marginal right-wing views represents the Republican party in its entirety... and that any extremist murderer with any left-wing views no matter how blatant is just a single crazy person and it has nothing at all to do with politics. Many posters here express the view that Republicans are entirely 100% at fault and to blame for any violence committed by anyone with any conservative leanings - any right wing violence is directly caused by Republicans, and supported by and incited by Republicans. On the other hand... Democrats are completely blameless and have absolutely no role in any left wing violence that is committed, regardless of any related factors. Democratic politicians spend a decade telling everyone that Republicans are fascists, and the people need to take action to stop them, Republicans need to made unwelcome in society, and implying that conservative citizens across the board are nazi supporters... and when someone references fascism in their politically-motivated assassination, somehow Democrats had nothing at all to do with that, and have no responsibility for the rhetoric they've been preaching.

By all means, hold Republicans responsible for the abhorrent things they say, and the way they've contributed to schism and division in the US. Absolutely.

But don't excuse Democrats from responsibility for the ways they've incited political strife and riled up citizens.
 
I Am The Scum said:
Pam Bondi invokes "hate speech" as an exception to free speech, as a means of targeting the left.

https://bsky.app/profile/thebulwark.com%2Fpost%2F3lyw4jbsjoa2u

Oh how the turns have tabled.

(Link because the media button seems to be malfunctioning)
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I can't even express how angry and concerned I am.

Seriously, this is not at all okay.

For years, it's been the left insisting that hate speech shouldn't be legally tolerated. And while politicians haven't acted on that sentiment from left-wing citizens, it's been a pretty consistent refrain. Generally speaking, most right wing citizens have taken a more constitutional free speech view, where you can say whatever hateful thing you want as long as you're not threatening someone or actively inciting violence.

Bondi now advocating to suppress free speech that is deemed hateful is an escalation that needs to be squashed and fast.
 
Emily's Cat said:
I don't think any extremist murderer represents any specific party either.

But many posters here absolutely believe that any extremist murderer with any marginal right-wing views represents the Republican party in its entirety... and that any extremist murderer with any left-wing views no matter how blatant is just a single crazy person and it has nothing at all to do with politics. Many posters here express the view that Republicans are entirely 100% at fault and to blame for any violence committed by anyone with any conservative leanings - any right wing violence is directly caused by Republicans, and supported by and incited by Republicans. On the other hand... Democrats are completely blameless and have absolutely no role in any left wing violence that is committed, regardless of any related factors. Democratic politicians spend a decade telling everyone that Republicans are fascists, and the people need to take action to stop them, Republicans need to made unwelcome in society, and implying that conservative citizens across the board are nazi supporters... and when someone references fascism in their politically-motivated assassination, somehow Democrats had nothing at all to do with that, and have no responsibility for the rhetoric they've been preaching.

By all means, hold Republicans responsible for the abhorrent things they say, and the way they've contributed to schism and division in the US. Absolutely.

But don't excuse Democrats from responsibility for the ways they've incited political strife and riled up citizens.
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The Republicans who aren't fascists are fascist enablers.
You do know that "no matter how blatant is just a single crazy person and it has nothing at all to do with politics" is the favourite Republican way of dismissing any killing of Democrats, leftists, Jews and Blacks, don't you?
Unless they were elevated to become MAGA heroes like Kyle Rittenhouse because MAGA murderers are never extremists ...
 
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Dr.Sid said:
I think there is big difference .. there are really people say "I'm happy Kirk got shot" .. that is IMHO deplorable, and actually illegal where I live (approval of a violent crime).
Saying "He reaped what he sowed" is another thing entirely. Or "I'm not gonna mourn him". Those should be fully protected.
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I'm perhaps more lenient than you. I think it's distasteful to express glee or celebration of Kirk being killed (or damned near anybody for that matter), even "I'm happy Kirk got shot". I don't like it, I think it shows a severe weakening of our society and the expectation of tolerance and civil behavior. But I completely support it as free speech.

What I don't support is the outpouring of suggestions for who should be assassinated next.
 
Emily's Cat said:
I can't even express how angry and concerned I am.

Seriously, this is not at all okay.

For years, it's been the left insisting that hate speech shouldn't be legally tolerated. And while politicians haven't acted on that sentiment from left-wing citizens, it's been a pretty consistent refrain. Generally speaking, most right wing citizens have taken a more constitutional free speech view, where you can say whatever hateful thing you want as long as you're not threatening someone or actively inciting violence.

Bondi now advocating to suppress free speech that is deemed hateful is an escalation that needs to be squashed and fast.
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The "more constitutional free speech view" was always, 'our guys should be allowed to spread hate against any minority we can think of because white Christian Republicans are always the only real victims.'
It was never about free speech, it was always about being allowed to spread lies and hate with impunity.
 
Emily's Cat said:
I don't think any extremist murderer represents any specific party either.

But many posters here absolutely believe that any extremist murderer with any marginal right-wing views represents the Republican party in its entirety... and that any extremist murderer with any left-wing views no matter how blatant is just a single crazy person and it has nothing at all to do with politics. Many posters here express the view that Republicans are entirely 100% at fault and to blame for any violence committed by anyone with any conservative leanings - any right wing violence is directly caused by Republicans, and supported by and incited by Republicans. On the other hand... Democrats are completely blameless and have absolutely no role in any left wing violence that is committed, regardless of any related factors. Democratic politicians spend a decade telling everyone that Republicans are fascists, and the people need to take action to stop them, Republicans need to made unwelcome in society, and implying that conservative citizens across the board are nazi supporters... and when someone references fascism in their politically-motivated assassination, somehow Democrats had nothing at all to do with that, and have no responsibility for the rhetoric they've been preaching.

By all means, hold Republicans responsible for the abhorrent things they say, and the way they've contributed to schism and division in the US. Absolutely.

But don't excuse Democrats from responsibility for the ways they've incited political strife and riled up citizens.
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Again, because you can't seem to make the connection, we're talking about the party's reaction to violence. Can you detail what the difference between Republican politicians reactions to political violence vs. Democrat politicians to political violence? Not just some faceless nobody's on Twitter. I mean lets actually compare the reactions and words used after tragedies like this because, as per usual, you're just playing the victim here. It's all just some big whataboutism when the two aren't even comparable. Then you cap it all off with your standard, Susan Collin-esque "I'm very concerned" about both sides.

That you can't see the difference is why I don't take your cries as you play the victim seriously.
 
smartcooky said:
I see no reason to doubt what she has said about her own case. I have zero doubt that she was given terrible advice.

It would be trivially easy to disprove it if it were lies. I know that she is considering suing her lawyer for giving her bad legal advice. I hope she does, so that we will all be able to see just how bad that advice was.

In the meantime, Kier Starmer's role in this ought to be questioned very closely.





You don't truly have free speech in the UK any more. What you have is speech that is only free so long as the government doesn't object. If they do object, you might find you get a mob-handed visit from your local police. You may not be arrested or charged, but that's not always the intention. The process IS the punishment - the mere fact that police are sent to question you about what you have said is intended as a deterrent, to make you and others think carefully before expressing your opinion. It is clearly intended to have a chilling effect on your free speech.

If you live in the UK, and you don't believe this, then I suggest you haven't been paying much attention to what has been happening in your own country. This is especially the case with regard to these insidious "Non-crime hate incidents" (NCHI), an aspect of life in the UK that is very much reminiscent of "Red Scare" McCarthyism of 1940s and 1950s America.
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Was she? Or was she given the standard legal advice that if she pleads guilty at the earliest opportunity she will be entitled to time off her sentence? No country has free speech and I don't want it either. I don't want to live in a country that thinks it's acceptable for adults to groom kids online. I don't think it's acceptable for men to bombard women or others with threatening messages.
 
dirtywick said:
if that's true, it also sounds like it was a pretty personal thing in some ways as well. though i suppose the lines between political and personal can cross. like luigi mangione, like yeah it sounds like he hated insurance companies, but not because of or only because of ideological reasons, he also had some personal problems with them due to his back.
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Except... Mangione didn't have United insurance at all, and so far as I can tell, all of their surgeries for their back injuries were covered.
 
Resume said:
I had previously noted, the right wing is bound and determined to make this a trans, left-wing thing, and that trans folks are so ◊◊◊◊◊◊. I guess I need to add gay folks.
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TBF... most of the reason they're making it a left-wing thing, is because the people celebrating political persecution and assassination of people for their political beliefs in this instance are left-wing. And the people proudly and openly discussing who should be assassinated next are left-wing.

So regardless of the political beliefs of Robinson, the response has been extremely partisan - from both parties and their supporters.

And extremely frightening.
 
Resume said:
The first nine minutes or so are a list of the times Trump called for violence against his opposition.
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Tbf, it was a minute and a half into the vid and Kieth hadn't said anything yet. A too long opening countdown and repeating like six times in the same words "the #1 threat facing conservatives etc" will cause you to lose that portion of your audience who has not tuned in for dramatic presentation. To paraphrase Tuco, "when it's time to talk, talk. Don't stall".
 
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Emily's Cat said:
TBF... most of the reason they're making it a left-wing thing, is because the people celebrating political persecution and assassination of people for their political beliefs in this instance are left-wing. And the people proudly and openly discussing who should be assassinated next are left-wing.

So regardless of the political beliefs of Robinson, the response has been extremely partisan - from both parties and their supporters.

And extremely frightening.
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But It wasn't frightening when prominent right wing politicians and spokespeople openly mocked Paul Pelosi being assaulted, or ignored when the Hortmans were assassinated, or for that matter when Charlie Kirk said Biden should be executed? Does the right even acknowledge any of that?
 
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stanfr said:
But It wasn't frightening when prominent right wing politicians and spokespeople openly mocked Paul Pelosi being assaulted, or ignored when the Hortmans were assassinated, or for that matter when Charlie Kirk said Biden should be assassinated? Does the right even acknowledge any of that?
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Trump barely acknowledges Kirk was assasinated now.. Oh, look at the trucks!
 
Emily's Cat said:
…most of the reason they're making it a left-wing thing, is because the people celebrating political persecution and assassination of people for their political beliefs in this instance are left-wing
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People who don't have Gen Zed kiddos running around (or Bluesky accounts) might be forgiven for missing the waves of youthful exuberance around Mangione & Robinson, mostly in the form of memes and short videos. It's been somewhat disheartening.

I'm not on right wing media enough to know whether something similar happened after the Pelosi & Hortman attacks, but I wouldn't be at all surprised.
 
Emily's Cat said:
I can't even express how angry and concerned I am.

Seriously, this is not at all okay.

For years, it's been the left insisting that hate speech shouldn't be legally tolerated. And while politicians haven't acted on that sentiment from left-wing citizens, it's been a pretty consistent refrain. Generally speaking, most right wing citizens have taken a more constitutional free speech view, where you can say whatever hateful thing you want as long as you're not threatening someone or actively inciting violence.

Bondi now advocating to suppress free speech that is deemed hateful is an escalation that needs to be squashed and fast.
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And obviously Republican approval ratings for Trump Republicans will crater because of how much they love free speech, right?

You be sure and let us know when that happens. I'll be over here holding my breath.
 
d4m10n said:
People who don't have Gen Zed kiddos running around (or Bluesky accounts) might be forgiven for missing the waves of youthful exuberance around Mangione & Robinson, mostly in the form of memes and short videos. It's been somewhat disheartening.

I'm not on right wing media enough to know whether something similar happened after the Pelosi & Hortman attacks, but I wouldn't be at all surprised.
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Oh no. "Gen Zed kiddos" on the internet saying things. Our society is doomed.

Luckily, we don't the people actually running this country saying and doing much worse and actually carrying out their threats with open displays of fascism.
 
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