The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

[Mojo]

The hilarious thing about this is none of it has anything to do with the bow visor falling off, and yanking the ramp open while the ship was sailing too fast for the weather. The lone CTist for this thread will never answer why saboteurs would blow off the visor and the ramp, but then also blow a hole in the side of the ship - above the water line.

To get rid of the cigarette smoke, of course.

 

[Mojo]

Am I remembering correctly, is this the same guy who was awarded a medal by the Swedish authorities, years later, to "keep him sweet" for lying about actually secretly rescuing the mysterious missing crew who were taken by the CIA to a black site in Germany?

Yes. I think they probably got the idea from watching reruns of Dastardly & Muttley.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Yes. I think they probably got the idea from watching reruns of Dastardly & Muttley.

They weren't trying to stop the smuggling of arms; they were trying to stop the pigeon.

 

[JesseCuster]

By minisub? Timed device? There are also blank torpedoes that can be fired which can also still cause damage.

I forgot about the blank torpedoes. I’m sure Vixen can remember what they’re meant to explain.

Many a true word spoken in jest, except torpedoes can be small and likewise limpet mines, not necessarily WWII ones.

And how can I forget the limpet mines.

No conjectures or hypothesis from Vixen. Only properly researched, referenced and cited facts. And it’s all current affairs news.

With all the minisubs, blank torpedoes, submarine collisions, bridge hijacking, secret dive to retrieve an attache case, nuclear material dissolving through steel, trucks being pushed overboard, limpet mines, sabotaged EPIRBs, communications blackout, off the books rescue flights that took senior crew members away to be renditioned by the CIA at a black site in Germany, space technology smuggling, Spetsnaz, fears of a Russian invasion of Estonia, demolition charges, I’ve forgotten why this isn’t a half-baked incoherent inconsistent ad hoc mess of conspiracy twaddle, but high-brow well researched current affairs facts from our resident triple inner who merely has an interest in this current affairs item.

 

[Vixen]

Consequently not every book is suitable for substantiating factual details.


That must be a quaint British phrase for the University of Utah. If you want us to respect the expertise of someone who taught there, why is my having taught engineering there such a problem for you in terms of respecting my expertise on the subject?


Yes, you said all that previously. But the bottom line appears to be that Nelson cannot be a firsthand source for his description of Voronin, and he does not cite any authority for the description he wrote. And you have supplied no evidence whatsoever for the judgment that he was "grossly overweight" or "morbidly obese."

Therefore it is appropriate to reject the claim as unsupported. But I'm certain we haven't heard the last of it.

Do you have a source for this, as I can find no reference to my calling him 'morbidly obese'. The term 'grossly overweight' was used in the following context:

...the luxurious front cabins with a magnificent view of the sea ahead, and four-bed cabins. The idea that landlubbers, such as the grossly overweight Voronin and his family should escape successfully - and they were in the prime position near the life boats and rescue equipment - yet were are...

• Vixen
• Post #1,890
• Nov 19, 2021
• Forum: Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories

This illustrates why it is important to quote me properly and in context. The context being that here you had a relatively unfit chap (and Jack A Nelson supplies the exact information that he was 245 pounds, in weight [similar to Donald Trump who claims to be 6'3"]). The point being made wasn't 'body-shaming', which is why I stated it in medical terms, not as a jibe, but as a factual piece of information, that here you had a guy with not only a later confirmed fractured spine, who could only get up the steps with the help of his 15-year-old son, who himself thought he had broken his arm, and his son's maternal grandfather, but someone who would be considered medically obese, given his long-term health conditions re cardio-vascular issues.

As for Nelson's book, the broadly biographical genre is perfectly respectable - he has it filed under History - there are many good books written about people, famous and ordinary, living and dead - and in in this case, Nelson's is the only one I know of that is about the survivors' stories, rather than about the mechanics of the sinking.

As for his credits, on the fly page he acknowledges them thus:

This work is dedicated to the courage, stamina, and optimism of those who survived the terrible conditions of that all-night ordeal in which towering, freezing waves at times washed away companions clinging to the same raft they were on. The actions of the six survivors focused on in this book offer great lessons in life and living.
Without the help and cooperation of survivors we interviewed in Stockholm and Estonia, this book could not have been written. We are especially grateful for our Estonian colleague Valeria Kaspar of Tallinn, who trudged through Estonian ships and the streets of Tallinn talking to survivors and families of the fallen.
-JAN

 

[zooterkin]

Do you have a source for this, as I can find no reference to my calling him 'morbidly obese'. The term 'grossly overweight' was used in the following context:

...the luxurious front cabins with a magnificent view of the sea ahead, and four-bed cabins. The idea that landlubbers, such as the grossly overweight Voronin and his family should escape successfully - and they were in the prime position near the life boats and rescue equipment - yet were are...

• Vixen
• Post #1,890
• Nov 19, 2021
• Forum: Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories

This illustrates why it is important to quote me properly and in context. The context being that here you had a relatively unfit chap (and Jack A Nelson supplies the exact information that he was 245 pounds, in weight [similar to Donald Trump who claims to be 6'3"]). The point being made wasn't 'body-shaming', which is why I stated it in medical terms, not as a jibe, but as a factual piece of information, that here you had a guy with not only a later confirmed fractured spine, who could only get up the steps with the help of his 15-year-old son, who himself thought he had broken his arm, and his son's maternal grandfather, but someone who would be considered medically obese, given his long-term health conditions re cardio-vascular issues.
... <snip>

Well, no, you may not have said the exact phrase "morbidly obese". You did, however, use the terms massively obese greatly obese grossly obese and medically very obese. Are you really going to quibble about those being substantially different?

As the bodies unusually were never recovered we may never know who exactly is down there. However, as well as initial Swedish Navy teams, there was a Swedish government sponsored outsource team of divers - Rockwater - who extensively filmed many many hours of footage. There were three teams of divers who of course reported back ont he bodies they had seen. Just because the JAIC doesn't mention them, it doesn't mean the divers did not see them. In fact iirc they reported seeing circa 152. They specifically noted the bodies on the bridge, of which there were three, identified as Kaunasaar (second mate), another officer (not Tammes) and the body trapped under a cabinet with a tattooed hand, which doesn't match any description provided by the deceaseds' relatives of their loved ones. Tammes' body was recovered from the water so it was not him.

In the Rockwater footage someone believed to be Simm - who was jailed ten years for high treason in 1996, when it came to light he was seliing Estonian and EU secrets to the Russians (this is fact, not conspiracy theory) - was on the platform instructing the divers, but his voice is muted out in which he is instructing divers to visit what would have been Captain Piht's cabin and to also look for a passenger with an attaché case locked onto his wrist. The attaché case was found and passed up. We are not told what was found in Piht's cabin or why they searched the cabin of Russian survivors family Voronin. (Voronin was massively obese yet he and his family managed to escape readily. He ran an arms trading business.) They claim is that a number was juxtaposed when they sought Piht's cabin and accidentally searched Voronin's instead, where they found the attaché case.

These are all weird facts that the JAIC never investigated, sticking religiously to former PM Carl Bildt's 'suggestion; the entire accident was not the fault of anybody but just due to a poor design of the visor bolts.

I don't know about you but I think the JAIC should have started off with a tabula rasa null hypothesis and not a foregone conclusion.

Here's the article in full, since it's behind a paywall:

ibid

Interesting that the greatly obese Voronin and his family were saved yet the master mariners in adjacent luxury cabins who were initially also listed as survivors suddenly became the unsaved after all.


Some guys have all the luck.

Had Captain Andresson survived and Avo Piht captured they would almost certainly be charged by sheer dint of being in charge. When the SS Park Victory smashed on rocks due to poor anchoring in Uto in 1947, the captain was charged with negligence. The buck stops with the captain.

If grossly obese Voronin and his family managed to survive without any problem and the 1917 born sea captain and his wife, then it seems obvious that those in the adjacent cabins and in the ones in the deck above, had an excellent chance of surviving. Likewise, Brit Paul Barney and Swede Sara Hedrenius, who had been kipping at the promenade deck cafeteria.

Many a true word said in jest. Bearing in mind they were able to confirm Andresson dead. If the old boy born 1917 and grossly obese Voronin and his family had no problems getting to a life raft, there is a strong chance the still fit senior officers also did, and indeed were listed as survivors. As you know, 138 were found alive (this final figure excluding the above). 252 were dead in their rafts or in the sea and were recovered. Among these was Third Officer Tammes - who made the famed Mayday call on a hand held device - who obviously had managed to escape the bridge even at about circa 0125.

So if the senior officers including Piht didn't survive after all and for some mysterious reason were registered as survivors, where are the bodies? Where are the dead bodies of these officers who presumably died of hypothermia instead, or at least one or two of them? None, did you say? Okaaaaaay.

Bearing in mind the divers checked the upper deck cabins and could easily have verified things.

What? I was pointing out that a highly unfit man (who had suffered strokes and heart attacks and was medically very obese) escaped with his two sons. He was in or near the same cabin as Piht who had just come off duty (thus was dressed). There was also a 76-year-old sea captain along the same vicinity. Most or all of the senior crew were in their late 30's and early 40's. The point being made is that if Voronin and the old boy had no problem surviving the sinking then it is highly probable that these senior 'missing Estonians' also survived and as initially listed as survivors.

As for your bleeding heart over Voronin you do know that when Rockwater and other naval divers searched the bridge, there was also a prolonged search of Voronin's cabin and for a particular briefcase? Voronin was an expat Russian who ran an electronics business and came to the particular attention of the secret services intelligence. Voronin may or may not have been dodgy but the point being made was the probability of someone at that vantage point on Deck 6 near the lifeboats, life vests and life rafts, had an excellent chance of surviving, as a majority of survivors were from the upper decks. His two sons were young adults or teenagers, not children, BTW.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I can find no reference to my calling him 'morbidly obese'.

That's true. A quick search confirms it's unjust to claim Vixen described Voronin as "morbidly obese".

She called him "massively", "greatly", grossly", "medically very", "medically grossly" and "clinically" obese but never "morbidly". I'm happy to correct that misapprehension.

 

[Vixen]

That's true. A quick search confirms it's unjust to claim Vixen described Voronin as "morbidly obese".

She called him "massively", "greatly", grossly", "medically very", "medically grossly" and "clinically" obese but never "morbidly". I'm happy to correct that misapprehension.

From AI overview:

AI Overview



The average weight of an adult male depends heavily on location, with the average male in the United States weighing about
199.8 pounds (90.6 kg), while the world average for adult males is around 136.7 pounds (62 kg). Other factors like age, height, ethnicity, and frame size also influence an individual's average weight, which is different from a person's healthy weight.

Alexander Voronin was 45lbs or apx three stone greater than the average US male (who in photos seem large to my eyes), and almost seven stone heavier than the world average of 136.7lbs, so it is quite fair to describe him as grossly obese, rather than just obese, as would describe the regular tubby person one might meet in the supermarket. I think in some UK towns two-thirds of Brits are technically obese.

 

[zooterkin]

From AI overview:

AI Overview



The average weight of an adult male depends heavily on location, with the average male in the United States weighing about
199.8 pounds (90.6 kg), while the world average for adult males is around 136.7 pounds (62 kg). Other factors like age, height, ethnicity, and frame size also influence an individual's average weight, which is different from a person's healthy weight.

Alexander Voronin was 45lbs or apx three stone greater than the average US male (who in photos seem large to my eyes), and almost seven stone heavier than the world average of 136.7lbs, so it is quite fair to describe him as grossly obese, rather than just obese, as would describe the regular tubby person one might meet in the supermarket. I think in some UK towns two-thirds of Brits are technically obese.

According to the NHS BMI calculator, someone who is 6'3" and 17st7lb (245lb) is just in the Obese category. BMI of 30.6, and the Obese category starts at 30. I fail to see how that can be 'grossly', 'greatly' or 'medically very' obese.

That's based on the values you've provided, of course, for which we have no verifiable evidence.

Calculate your body mass index (BMI) - NHS

Check an adult's or child's BMI to find out if they're a healthy weight.

www.nhs.uk

 

[GlennB]

From AI overview:

AI Overview



The average weight of an adult male depends heavily on location, with the average male in the United States weighing about
199.8 pounds (90.6 kg), while the world average for adult males is around 136.7 pounds (62 kg). Other factors like age, height, ethnicity, and frame size also influence an individual's average weight, which is different from a person's healthy weight.

Alexander Voronin was 45lbs or apx three stone greater than the average US male (who in photos seem large to my eyes), and almost seven stone heavier than the world average of 136.7lbs, so it is quite fair to describe him as grossly obese, rather than just obese, as would describe the regular tubby person one might meet in the supermarket. I think in some UK towns two-thirds of Brits are technically obese.

Evasion noted.

 

[Vixen]

The hilarious thing about this is none of it has anything to do with the bow visor falling off, and yanking the ramp open while the ship was sailing too fast for the weather. The lone CTist for this thread will never answer why saboteurs would blow off the visor and the ramp, but then also blow a hole in the side of the ship - above the water line.

The JAIC is called into question because it doesn't address conspiracy prattle. Vixen cannot separate ancillary information from peripheral information, and is all to happy to speculate on unrealistic scenarios based upon unrelated historical events. One could entertain some aspects of conspiracy had Estonia sank in 2,500 meters of water where access would be limited. But it sank in reasonably shallow water, at least as far as the wreck can be reached by divers. The ship has now been explored, inspected, photographed, and explored TWICE as of this moment. No evidence of sabotage has been found. All of the collected, observed, and recorded evidence points to a catastrophic failure of the bow-visor exacerbated by a number of designed flaws, and poor crew training which led to the sinking of Estonia.

That's it, that's all anyone needs to know.

You said in an earlier post that you were called out by some ghosthunters, fearing they had a ghost and you reassured them it was just the pipes, but they weren't happy. I would just remark that if you believe you have a ghost, you are better off employing an exorcist if you are into that kind of thing. But re your post here, and by other posters, the feeling seems to be, 'so what?', or 'just leave it'. I am not looking for 'reassurance' or 'alternative explanations'. I am a problem-solver; it's what I do. So when people's response to the claimed 'missing Estonian crew' is 'oh, they're dead', 'must have drowned' or 'it must have been a mistake', I am not sure how that solves the problem of why, how and when they were listed as survivors in the first place. In the case of Piht, I want to understand why so many reliable sources, including Interpol, seemed to presume he had survived. It isn't something that someone made up. So I want to understand why the hole in the hull as reported and filmed by at least two different film crews wasn't mentioned by the JAIC, and if the hole was indeed caused by a rocky outcrop after the sinking and had nothing at all to do with the sinking, I want to understand how come it hasn't been explained properly before, and to understand the exact mechanism of how this happened, if true. So you, you happy not to even think about it; me, I want to understand it. I want to understand what happened to the captain and the senior crew. So there is no point offering platitudes such as <fx scouse accent> 'the ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ died'.

 

[Vixen]

According to the NHS BMI calculator, someone who is 6'3" and 17st7lb (245lb) is just in the Obese category. BMI of 30.6, and the Obese category starts at 30. I fail to see how that can be 'grossly', 'greatly' or 'medically very' obese.

That's based on the values you've provided, of course, for which we have no verifiable evidence.

Calculate your body mass index (BMI) - NHS

Check an adult's or child's BMI to find out if they're a healthy weight.

www.nhs.uk

View attachment 63940

We don't know Voronin was 6'3". The average male is 5'8". this gives:



There is no NHS category beyond 'obese' but we can see visually such a person is almost the normal and overweight area combined.

 

[Disbelief]

You have to remember that Vixen repeatedly misidentified "Ken" as helicopter Y69.

Am I remembering correctly, is this the same guy who was awarded a medal by the Swedish authorities, years later, to "keep him sweet" for lying about actually secretly rescuing the mysterious missing crew who were taken by the CIA to a black site in Germany?

Part of the sweet deal was he married someone named Barbie and moved into her Dream house.

 

[zooterkin]

We don't know Voronin was 6'3". The average male is 5'8". this gives:

View attachment 63942

There is no NHS category beyond 'obese' but we can see visually such a person is almost the normal and overweight area combined.

If he were that short, he'd not likely be described as "A Russian giant" or "a heavy-shouldered bear of a man", would he?

Nelson writes, 'Alexander who weighed 245 pounds...' and earlier, 'A Russian giant with a heavy shock of graying [sic] hair and beard...' ''a heavy-shouldered bear of a man...'

 

[Vixen]

Part of the sweet deal was he married someone named Barbie and moved into her Dream house.

Did you manage to find any 'far right leanings' you claimed I had yet?

 

[Vixen]

If he were that short, he'd not likely be described as "A Russian giant" or "a heavy-shouldered bear of a man", would he?

That was in the eyes of his adoring 15-year-old son.

 

[LondonJohn]

I am a problem-solver; it's what I do.

Getting such strong David Brent vibes.........

 

[Disbelief]

Did you manage to find any 'far right leanings' you claimed I had yet?

I thought you always researched things. Obviously not, as I did not make that statement.

 

[zooterkin]

That was in the eyes of his adoring 15-year-old son.

Nelson is his son?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

In the case of Piht, I want to understand why so many reliable sources, including Interpol, seemed to presume he had survived.

Interpol did not presume Piht survived. Interpol were, like you, aware of conflicting reports. There is now no good reason to think he didn't simply drown and no realistic scenario in which he didn't.

You could, I suppose, ask Interpol if they still think he might have survived.

Who are your other "many reliable sources" who think he survived?