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Merged Charlie Kirk shot at Utah Valley University event. / Charlie Kirk Shot And Killed

Emily's Cat said:
Technically true. On the other hand, over the last couple of decades it's been pretty consistently far left progressives who label anyone and everyone even marginally conservative as a fascist, and use that errantly applied label to justify riots, attacks, harassment, and intimidation in service to "antifascism". Most of the time, the targets of those far left activists aren't actually fascist in any reasonable sense of the word.

Honestly, it's as idiotic as tea partiers calling Obama a communist, and the religious right calling pro-choice people baby-killers.
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I agree one cannot call every right-winger a fascist. But be careful ignoring what Trump and his current inner circle are doing. I do hope enough of us stand up against Trump and his plan to just stay in office until he dies. He seems to really like pushing so many people around.
 
Safe-Keeper said:
It's just another form of whataboutism, really. They're the ones with the inflammatory rhetoric, but they are doing a half-assed attempt at making it seem like it's the other side. The classic 'why are you so intolerant' rhetoric they always drag out when we point out racism, transphobia, etc.

I suppose it's convincing to the other members inside the cult. Or something.
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https://twitter.com/x/status/1966598478408147224

Yep, Democrats have no responsibility for this at all. Not one bit.

I will stand by my position that BOTH parties are completely ◊◊◊◊◊◊, neither is in it for the citizens, and both are currently doing their damnedest to start a civil war.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Think this through. What's the point of labeling people fascists or nazis, when they aren't in actual fact fascists or nazis?

It's so that killing them is seen as justifiable.
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They are not Nazis but many are antidemocratic right wingers who believe that the rule of law doesn't apply to Trump's supporters - hence his pardons of violent criminals.

It's pretty close to fascism.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Think this through. What's the point of labeling people fascists or nazis, when they aren't in actual fact fascists or nazis?

It's so that killing them is seen as justifiable.
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Right wing hyperbole is hyperbolic.

Let's see.... what is the point of labelling people socialists or communists (or "woke" :rolleyes: ) when they aren't in actual fact socialists or communists?

It's so that......... see how this works?
 
jt512 said:
Me too.

When it comes to actual incidents, there's a question of how far back you should go. Any such statistics that include data from before the George Floyd / Covid riots are likely to be out of date; indeed, it could turn out that any statistics that include data before the killing of Charlie Kirk are already out of date. There is also the question of what the correct denominator should be—incidents? injuries? deaths?

In contrast, attitudes can be measured instantaneously—this poll, for example, which I quoted earlier, was taken after Kirk's murder—and can easily be tracked over time. The question of how well they predict behavior, however, is an open one. My guess, as I stated earlier, is that it they are a leading indicator.

Based on the poll linked above, age and political ideology have independent effects on approval of political violence. Those aged 18–44 are about twice as likely to approve of political violence than those aged 45+ among both liberals (26% vs. 12%) and conservatives (7% vs. 4%). That's among all liberals and all conservatives. If "very liberals" were compared with "very conservatives," the age effect would be greater.
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TIme is always a factor. If you go back 100 years, then left wing violence and eco-terrorism might take the win. But I figure 50 years is a span of time that the majority of us have been influenced by. Sure, some of us were toddlers, some not even born - but I think pretty much all of us have experienced direct effects from 1975 onward. We could probably make an argument to go back to 1950 and include the civil rights movement, because it certainly had lasting influences on my childhood.

Yes, those under 45 are about 2x as likely to approve of political violence, regardless of politics - and that's a concern all by itself. It's also higher among liberals of all ages than conservatives or moderates. All of it concerns me quite a bit. And it really concerns me that so very many people are completely unwilling to even stop and consider whether or not political rhetoric from the left could be adding to the problem. I'm not saying that political rhetoric from the right isn't part of the problem - but it's clearly not a one-sided problem.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
I agree one cannot call every right-winger a fascist. But be careful ignoring what Trump and his current inner circle are doing. I do hope enough of us stand up against Trump and his plan to just stay in office until he dies. He seems to really like pushing so many people around.
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I'm not ignoring it. But I'm also not ignoring that we had a pretty consistent and vehement refrain from Democrats over the last decade demonizing and dehumanizing conservatives and Republicans, calling them all fascists and nazis, and calling it an existential threat, and even implying that a violent uprising might be the only way to address the evil fascist nazis.

Both houses are ◊◊◊◊◊◊. And both are fomenting a civil war.
 
Emily's Cat said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1966598478408147224

Yep, Democrats have no responsibility for this at all. Not one bit.

I will stand by my position that BOTH parties are completely ◊◊◊◊◊◊, neither is in it for the citizens, and both are currently doing their damnedest to start a civil war.
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Have we heard yet how the Democratic Party influenced this guy? I haven't.

Seems like Kirk, himself might have been the biggest influence on his murderer. One cannot, however, rule out the role growing up around guns had an influence. We don't know for sure but it does appear that kind of influence would lead one to see guns as a solution to many of one's grievances. And that is definitely a right-wing POV.

Also you can't go back to the 60s and 70s when you are trying to prove bothsideisms. The discussion is about current events, not about the history of US politics.
 
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Core characteristics of fascism
  • Dictatorial leadership: The government is led by a single authoritarian leader who claims to represent the will of the nation.
  • Centralized autocracy: Power is heavily concentrated at the center, leaving little or no room for representative democracy or other liberal government practices.
  • Ultranationalism: The movement prioritizes the nation above all else, often relying on a mythic or imagined historical past and a narrative of national decline.
  • Militarism and violence: Fascism glorifies military strength and views violence as a legitimate and even purifying tool for achieving national goals.
  • Suppression of opposition: Opposing political parties, labor unions, and other dissenting groups are forcibly repressed to remove any challenge to the one-party state.
  • Scapegoating: Fascist movements often rely on the demonization of internal or external "others," such as ethnic or religious minorities, immigrants, or political opponents, to unify the population.
  • Social hierarchy: Fascism promotes a belief in a natural social hierarchy and an inherent inequality among different groups.
  • Propaganda: Sophisticated propaganda techniques are used to build popular support and promote the movement's agenda.
The current POTUS, the most powerful person in the world, declared war on his own citizens in a city he doesn't like. If the isn't actively promoting political violence, I don't know what is.
 
Steve said:
Right wing hyperbole is hyperbolic.

Let's see.... what is the point of labelling people socialists or communists (or "woke" :rolleyes: ) when they aren't in actual fact socialists or communists?

It's so that......... see how this works?
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Yes, Steve. I DO see how it works. There's a reason I think both parties are absolute dog ◊◊◊◊. Democrats over the past decade calling all conservatives nazis and fascists is just as stupid and short-sighted as tea partiers calling all liberals communists and socialists.
 
Resume said:
Core characteristics of fascism
  • Dictatorial leadership: The government is led by a single authoritarian leader who claims to represent the will of the nation.
  • Centralized autocracy: Power is heavily concentrated at the center, leaving little or no room for representative democracy or other liberal government practices.
  • Ultranationalism: The movement prioritizes the nation above all else, often relying on a mythic or imagined historical past and a narrative of national decline.
  • Militarism and violence: Fascism glorifies military strength and views violence as a legitimate and even purifying tool for achieving national goals.
  • Suppression of opposition: Opposing political parties, labor unions, and other dissenting groups are forcibly repressed to remove any challenge to the one-party state.
  • Scapegoating: Fascist movements often rely on the demonization of internal or external "others," such as ethnic or religious minorities, immigrants, or political opponents, to unify the population.
  • Social hierarchy: Fascism promotes a belief in a natural social hierarchy and an inherent inequality among different groups.
  • Propaganda: Sophisticated propaganda techniques are used to build popular support and promote the movement's agenda.
The current POTUS, the most powerful person in the world, declared war on his own citizens in a city he doesn't like. If the isn't actively promoting political violence, I don't know what is.
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i mean, how does maga not check every single one of those boxes with a giant red ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ check mark lol
 
Emily's Cat said:
Yes, Steve. I DO see how it works. There's a reason I think both parties are absolute dog ◊◊◊◊. Democrats over the past decade calling all conservatives nazis and fascists is just as stupid and short-sighted as tea partiers calling all liberals communists and socialists.
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Then your post that I quoted seems rather pointless.

Although here I see democrats compared to tea partiers and not to republicans. Are you still letting your personal politics interfere with whatever point you would really like to make?
 
plus, the democrats spent the last decade calling republicans nazis and fascists, and now there's nazis and fascists in charge. so, do they at least get points for accuracy? or is this one of those they only went far right because the left was so mean pity parties?
 
i also spent the last decade telling people anti-vaxers and bad and dangerous and going to kill kids, and now rfk is in charge. is that my fault too? where's this personal responsibility ◊◊◊◊ you guys all pretend to believe? take some
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Have we heard yet how the Democratic Party influenced this guy? I haven't.

Seems like Kirk, himself might have been the biggest influence on his murderer. One cannot, however, rule out the role growing up around guns had an influence. We don't know for sure but it does appear that kind of influence would lead one to see
guns as a solution to many of one's grievances. And that is definitely a right-wing POV.
Also you can't go back to the 60s and 70s when you are trying to prove bothsideisms. The discussion is about current events, not about the history of US politics.
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Let's not forget our esteemed POTUS suggested a second amendment solution to Hillary Clinton's candidacy.
 
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