The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

[dorricc0]

It's a shame the format of this forum only shows the message that is being replied to and not the thread of the conversation - and it is a recurring theme that Vixen only addresses the latest reply and not how the conversation got there. This repeatedly leads to her contradicting herself.

In an earlier example, it was:
V: The coastguard wouldn't notice a dive ship, just a dot on the horizon. {sarcastic imagined radio conversation}
D: {explanation of how a dive/ROV ship looks distinctive} Vixen's notion that the coastguard would not notice, or note, or mistake for something else, a dive vessel over the wreck site is uninformed fantasy.
V: That's nonsense. Of course the coastguards noticed.

In this latest example:

Rabe is just a journalist reporting information received from informants. I have no idea how reliable these informants are. However, Rabe and F Gregg Bemis were convinced enough to get DER SPIEGEL to sponsor the secret* dive to the MV Estonia to investigate for themselves, so convinced were they. Margus Kurm was more recently sponsored by Postimees (>€770K) to make a similar expedition. People don't do this because they are 'conspiracy theorists' they do it out of a desire to discover the facts for themselves.

*Secret dive, as in the secret nature of the dive.

To which the reply was:

<snipped for brevity>

To which Vixen replied:

I didn't say being sponsored means it 'must be legit' or even 'an appeal to authority'. I was stating facts. If you recall, you were arguing that because they had a big ship., complete with ROV's, platforms and divers, it can't be a 'secret dive' because....well you can see the boat!...?

Vixen was 'stating facts' but also has 'no idea how reliable these informants are'.

Vixen 'didn't say being sponsored means it 'must be legit'' yet she did say 'People don't do this because they are 'conspiracy theorists' they do it out of a desire to discover the facts for themselves.'

Right, back to my popcorn.

 

[Mojo]

It's a shame the format of this forum only shows the message that is being replied to and not the thread of the conversation

If you click on "quote" on multiple posts, you can then quote them together using the "Insert quotes" button.

 

[EHocking]

I didn't say being sponsored means it 'must be legit' or even 'an appeal to authority'.

You most certainly did. Twice. Once by incorrectly pretending that Der Spiegel (the authority) financed the Rabe dive in an effort to claim because of that they endorsed/legitimised the dive.
You failed because a) der Spiegel was not the agency that filmed the dive, 2) Spiegel (neither TV nor Der) financed it and iii) Spiegel TV disassociated themselves from the project.

You did the same with Kurm’s project being financed by someone else.

It was a blatant appeal to authority. Everyone else could see it.
To now claim this was not an appeal to authority is to misrepresent your argument and not an ignorance of what this fallacy is.

I also notice you prefer to engage in obfuscation rather than address the massive misrepresentation of Spiegel’s involvement.

I was stating facts.

No you blatantly misrepresented the involvement of Spiegel in Rabe’s project in order to exaggerate your claim to be stating “facts”. And then don’t even acknowledge the correction of your misrepresentation of the actual facts.

If you recall, you were arguing that because they had a big ship., complete with ROV's, platforms and divers, it can't be a 'secret dive' because....well you can see the boat!...?

Nope. That was just you, as per usual, pretending that what you posted wasn’t what you were claiming.
Obfuscation and goal post moving as well as a bit of gaslighting is how you have been responding whenever a “fact” of yours is shown to be complete rubbish.

 

[Dabop]

Are you claiming that Google's translation was not accurate when it used the term "aerospace" instead of "spacecraft"?

Google translate (and all the others) are notorious for screwing up translations, enough so there are entire websites dedicated to the end results....
(like https://www.boredpanda.com/translation-fails/ )

So would I trust any actual machine translation???
Hell no....

One of the best test results we used to try was 'sending the instruction manual on a loop' ie get the instruction manual, have it translated from one language to another, to another, to another and back to English again....

The results were almost always 'less than satisfactory'....

 

[Vixen]

Why did you 'interpret' "aerospace" as "spacecraft"?

I can confirm the correct translation from the German is, 'Spacecraft'.

Saksalainen Süddeutsche Zeitung julkaisi vuoden 2002 kesäkuussa jutun, jossa käsiteltiin Estoniaa ja Voroninin mahdollista osuutta salaisissa asekaupoissa. Voroninin väitettiin osallistuneen neuvostoliittolaisen avaruustek-niikan ja aseiden salakuljettamiseen.

Aleksander Voronin sai artikkelin luettavakseen, mutta ei koskaan ennättänyt sitä julkisuudessa kom-mentoida, sillä hän kuoli odottamatta aivohalvaukseen kaksi viikkoa lehden ilmestymisen jälkeen. J.K. Tamminen – Estonian Salaisuudet, 2021

Google translate Finnish - English:

In June 2002, the German Süddeutsche Zeitung published an article about the Estonia and Voronin's possible role in secret arms deals. Voronin was allegedly involved in the smuggling of Soviet space technology and weapons.

Aleksander Voronin was given the article to read, but never had time to comment on it in public, as he died unexpectedly of a stroke two weeks after the magazine's publication.

 

[Vixen]

What do you understand the word "secret" to mean?

Secret in nature as I already said. If your boat sailed from any of the eight countries that signed the Estonia Treaty, then the coastguards had a right to forcibly intervene and prevent you even going near. The only dives allowed were by the authority of the Swedish Navy and relevant governance (for example, oil clearance). These are official meticulously planned projects with defined scope. When you turn up in a German boat, departed from a German or other neutral port, whilst you might be visible, your dive is not and can be as secret as you like, known only to yourself. I am not sure why this concept is so difficult to grasp.

 

[Vixen]

It's a shame the format of this forum only shows the message that is being replied to and not the thread of the conversation - and it is a recurring theme that Vixen only addresses the latest reply and not how the conversation got there. This repeatedly leads to her contradicting herself.

In an earlier example, it was:
V: The coastguard wouldn't notice a dive ship, just a dot on the horizon. {sarcastic imagined radio conversation}
D: {explanation of how a dive/ROV ship looks distinctive} Vixen's notion that the coastguard would not notice, or note, or mistake for something else, a dive vessel over the wreck site is uninformed fantasy.
V: That's nonsense. Of course the coastguards noticed.

In this latest example:

To which the reply was:

To which Vixen replied:

Vixen was 'stating facts' but also has 'no idea how reliable these informants are'.

Vixen 'didn't say being sponsored means it 'must be legit'' yet she did say 'People don't do this because they are 'conspiracy theorists' they do it out of a desire to discover the facts for themselves.'

Right, back to my popcorn.

Given I have seen footage of Eagle One and the Evertsson dive boats and paraphernalia, I suspect you are just playing on semantics, as in 'boat visible' therefore, 'noted'.

 

[Mojo]

I can confirm the correct translation from the German is, 'Spacecraft'.



Google translate Finnish - English:

In June 2002, the German Süddeutsche Zeitung published an article about the Estonia and Voronin's possible role in secret arms deals. Voronin was allegedly involved in the smuggling of Soviet space technology and weapons.

Aleksander Voronin was given the article to read, but never had time to comment on it in public, as he died unexpectedly of a stroke two weeks after the magazine's publication.

Was the Postimees article, which you quoted as saying "aerospace", your source for the claim that Voronin dealt in spacecraft, or did you get the claim from somewhere else?

 

[Vixen]

You most certainly did. Twice. Once by incorrectly pretending that Der Spiegel (the authority) financed the Rabe dive in an effort to claim because of that they endorsed/legitimised the dive.
You failed because a) der Spiegel was not the agency that filmed the dive, 2) Spiegel (neither TV nor Der) financed it and iii) Spiegel TV disassociated themselves from the project.

You did the same with Kurm’s project being financed by someone else.

It was a blatant appeal to authority. Everyone else could see it.
To now claim this was not an appeal to authority is to misrepresent your argument and not an ignorance of what this fallacy is.

I also notice you prefer to engage in obfuscation rather than address the massive misrepresentation of Spiegel’s involvement.


No you blatantly misrepresented the involvement of Spiegel in Rabe’s project in order to exaggerate your claim to be stating “facts”. And then don’t even acknowledge the correction of your misrepresentation of the actual facts.

Nope. That was just you, as per usual, pretending that what you posted wasn’t what you were claiming.
Obfuscation and goal post moving as well as a bit of gaslighting is how you have been responding whenever a “fact” of yours is shown to be complete rubbish.

It is correct DER SPIEGEL officially cut links with Rabe, taking out a legal injunction from Rabe ever mentioning a link with DER SPEIGEL and her Estonia projects ever again. However, pointing out the cost of such an expedition - she now credits herself and Bemis as sole funders - was my informing you I was perfectly well aware such an expedition would be visible to the coastguards. That doesn't mean the dives around the wreck are visible -which is what they are there for - unless you are being obtuse and claiming, 'ah yeah, but they saw the diver going down so it can't be classed as a secret dive'. I am not sure how it is gas-lighting to point out no-one knows the nature of these dives unless we are later informed (and are we informed of everything) when the whole point of the Treaty was to protect this site, such as from such incursions. It is a perfectly valid observation, which followed from Axxman saying at least that can't now happen. I simply progressed the conversation to say...unless you turn up under a German flag. I am not sure how size of the boat obviates the thrust of my observation.

 

[Vixen]

Was the Postimees article, which you quoted as saying "aerospace", your source for the claim that Voronin dealt in spacecraft, or did you get the claim from somewhere else?

Do you follow the thread because you ought to have already seen a further source, Tamminen, which confirms what the German newspaper said.

 

[Mojo]

[deleted - edit function won't let me fix the formatting]

 

[Mojo]

Do you follow the thread because you ought to have already seen a further source, Tamminen, which confirms what the German newspaper said.

Was that your source for the claim that he dealt in spacecraft?

 

[Vixen]

Was that your source for the claim that he dealt in spacecraft?

I confirm I have been in possession of the J.K. Tamminen book for a few years. What is difficult to grasp?

 

[Vixen]

Incidentally, you recently claimed that Voronin had "advanced health problems" at the time of the sinking and that he died "a couple of years later aged only about 42 of ill-health", making it unlikely that he would survive the sinking, and now you're citing a source saying that he died unexpectedly in 2002.

ETA: there's an unwanted spoiler tag that I can't edit out for some reason.

He had cardio-vascular problems. He died of a stroke.

 

[Mojo]

I can confirm the correct translation from the German is, 'Spacecraft'.



Google translate Finnish - English:

In June 2002, the German Süddeutsche Zeitung published an article about the Estonia and Voronin's possible role in secret arms deals. Voronin was allegedly involved in the smuggling of Soviet space technology and weapons.

Aleksander Voronin was given the article to read, but never had time to comment on it in public, as he died unexpectedly of a stroke two weeks after the magazine's publication.

Incidentally, you recently claimed that Voronin had "advanced health problems" at the time of the sinking and that he died "a couple of years later aged only about 42 of ill-health", making it unlikely that he would survive the sinking, and now you're citing a source saying that he died unexpectedly in 2002.

 

[Mojo]

He had cardio-vascular problems. He died of a stroke.

Unexpectedly, 8 years later.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Which spacecraft did he deal in exactly?
They are pretty big things.

 

[Vixen]

Unexpectedly, 8 years later.

'A couple of years later' is Brit slang for not sure of date of death.

 

[zooterkin]

I confirm I have been in possession of the J.K. Tamminen book for a few years. What is difficult to grasp?

Your inability to answer a simple question is pretty hard to grasp.

 

[dorricc0]

Secret in nature as I already said. If your boat sailed from any of the eight countries that signed the Estonia Treaty, then the coastguards had a right to forcibly intervene and prevent you even going near. The only dives allowed were by the authority of the Swedish Navy and relevant governance (for example, oil clearance). These are official meticulously planned projects with defined scope. When you turn up in a German boat, departed from a German or other neutral port, whilst you might be visible, your dive is not and can be as secret as you like, known only to yourself. I am not sure why this concept is so difficult to grasp.

Then allow me to spell it out, in words of as few syllables as practicable.

It is difficult to grasp, because it is utter nonsense written by someone who knows nothing about commercial diving or marine operations.

The ignorance persists despite several posters taking the time to explain various aspects of these disciplines (the distinguishing features of a dive ship, the numbers of persons involved, permits and consents, etc etc). Secret dive indeed .