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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

MarkCorrigan said:
Except that they wouldn't need to do that to reverse engineer it OR evaluate their levels of advancement. They already knew that Soviet stuff was junk.

ETA: You're ignoring the actual question again, of course. I am asking why they would resort to smuggling in 1994 when they could have just bought it direct from Russia.

Even if your speculative Cold War nonsense were accurate for the time period of the Cold War, 1994 when the Estonia sank was after the end of the Cold War.
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Whilst Soviet military might well be junk, nonetheless, they were quite well up on space craft.
 
Dabop said:
Hang on- wasn't the Russian stuff supposed to be horrible radioactive goop that ate the bow locks away??? I'm fairly sure that was a thing at one point in this gish gallop of conspiracy inanity....
(I meant to write insanity, but inanity works too lol)
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There was a lot of smuggling of uranium and other radioactive stuff from the decommissioned military base at Paldiski when the USSR fell. Hardly a conspiracy inanity except to those blissfully unaware of current affairs history.
 
dorricc0 said:
My pleasure to quote you.

#1611 of this very thread, only 6 days ago:

And #1687, only 4 days ago:

And #2103 just yesterday:

Well that was easy enough. You can thank me now.
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In future, please may I ask you cite my comments in context and in full, to show what post I was replying to. What you have done here is taken a post that replied to a question about professional ethics and reapplied it to something about divers and Voronin's case, as a snarky way of 'using your own words against you', in an intellectually dishonest way. Rather like the posters who browbeat one into revealing what my qualifications were and then accused one of 'bolstering yourself' when I acquiesced.
 
EHocking said:
Bothsiderism does not counter the fact that you conceded that Meister had an axe to grind because of the evidence pointing to Estonian culpability for the disaster.

His claim the Swedish gov was hiding video etc that exonerated Estonian culpability is literally the definition of a conspiracy theory.

Quoting him as a source for any “facts” about the disaster will be tainted by his bias.
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Given Meister was head of the JAIC and had access to all of the documents, interviews, classified stuff, confidential stuff, videos and discussions, he can hardly be written off as a conspiracy theorist, no matter how you spin it.
 
EHocking said:
Finns might be able to read Estonian but you admit you cannot.
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You didn't quite understand. Whilst Finns can understand and recognise various words and phrases in each other's language, it is not the same as being able to speak each other's language, despite their being closely related Uralic languages. This is because over the centuries Estonian has transformed into using a germanic syntax and sentence word order, away from the highly inflected one, as in Finnish. You can see the difference here:


Thus, whilst I'll need to translate Meister's book, many of the words and phrases will be clearly recognisable, assuming it is not too turgid and simply written. You'll recall Tammes' Mayday message? Well he was an Estonian and he had no problem speaking and understanding Finnish, having spent a few months there in training.

 
Axxman300 said:
He's full of crap. First off, anyone who uses the phrase "PsyOp", or "False Flag" is a delusional moron. Let me explain why:

A Psy-Op is coordinated operation across media domains to convince a population to believe, and or act in a way that favors the entity conducting the operation.

A False Flag operation is committing an act to be blamed on another state entity in order to start a war.

So who was going to war? Sweden or Estonia? If it was a false-flag, where is the planted evidence? The whole point of a false-flag operation is to hang this disaster around someone's neck, so who was framed? Where was the outcry demanding retribution?

And what's the Psy-Op? Was Eurail hoping to undermine public confidence in shipping? What did this disaster convince anybody? Was this a secret plan to make money by forcing ferry companies to upgrade equipment?

You can't just throw those phrases around as if they don't mean anything specific.
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Exactly, yet this is what 'Bollyn' does in his career CT-ing.
 
Axxman300 said:
Has anyone pointed out how damned hard it would be to dive on the Estonia unnoticed? For Vixen's claim to be real, Sweden would have to fear some rogue dive team sneaking aboard the ship to retrieve the briefcase, and whatever else, and then slipping away. That would be hard for the US and Royal Navies to pull off, even with our cool sneaky submarine technology. This entire rabbit hole is an exercise in delusional thinking.
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The Estonia Treaty (grave peace) excludes Germany as it didn't sign it, so what people do is visit under a German flag. Swedish and Finnish coastguards patrol the area but German boats are exempt from breaking the treaty.
 
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Axxman300 said:
An independent Estonia is a good thing, even then. Back then Russia was a basket case, unlike the blazing dumpster-fire it is today. And yes, it was in Sweden's best interest to get the former Baltic Nations up and running as non-Soviet era failed states. Clinton had only been in the White House just under two years, and his foreign policy was largely unimaginative. Carl Bildt is smart and wise man, who understands Europe's big picture, and I'm sure he was a big help to Clinton in many areas, and that's a good thing.

The smuggling of crappy Russian gear has been discussed multiple times. Nobody was put at risk. If there was any "interesting" materials we (the US) wanted to abscond with we wouldn't risk civilian transport. Maybe you're not familiar, but we have our own Air Force, and our own Navy, and between their special operations commands, and our civilian intelligence agencies we can get items out of hostile territory most of the time.

We don't need no stinkin' ferry.

The idea that the CIA would have renditioned friendly civilians in 1994 is a pathetic joke.

(Also, I follow Bildt on Twitter. He knows where all the good bookstores are in Iceland...the monster...)
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But it did use a civilian ferry, the MV Estonia. Appeal Court Judge Jonathan Hirschfield stood up in the Swedish Riksdag and admitted it under parliamentary privilege after a Swedish Customs Officer complained about being told to 'wave through' certain vehicles without inspection.

I also follow Bildt on Twitter. He understands exactly what Russia is all about from first hand dealings.
 
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Vixen said:
The Estonia Treaty (grave peace) excludes Germany as it didn't sign it, so what people do is visit under a German flag. Swedish and Finnish coastguards patrol the area but German boats are exempt from breaking the treaty.
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How many German dive ships have visited the area?
You know you can't just pop on a wet suit and aqualung your way down if you want to do anything useful?
 
Vixen said:
The Estonia Treaty (grave peace) excludes Germany as it didn't sign it, so what people do is visit under a German flag. Swedish and Finnish coastguards patrol the area but German boats are exempt from breaking the treaty.
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As is often the case, your answer is completely disconnected from the post you're replying to. Try again.
 
Andy_Ross said:
How many German dive ships have visited the area?
You know you can't just pop on a wet suit and aqualung your way down if you want to do anything useful?
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F. Gregg Bemis and Jutta Rabe, for one. Then there was the Henrik Evertsson team, not to mention Margus Kurm. Complete with ROV's, divers and visual-audio recording equipment. They all set off from Germany. Evertsson has since been convicted of breaking the peace and Rabe will be arrested if she ever sets foot in Sweden.
 
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