Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Thermal]

I don't have any such "sense" of self, and I certainly don't have a "sense" of my gender. I simply know who and what I am.

Ya that's called a sense of self.

You had me going there for a while, but you've jumped the shark now.

 

[Manger Douse]

They can be. The statistics presented were not.

Bald assertions from the notoriously casual with the truth trans rights movement aren't convincing

I don't see any reason to believe that women, by and large, view public bathrooms as places to seek safety from predators. As already mentioned, I think there are circumstances where this would not be at all advisable.

I see you're mansplaning women's safe spaces to an actual woman so I'll let her deal with you

This is incorrect, nothing I said implies that anything like authority over the English language, and NYC transit system? What on earth are you talking about?

Here:

Gender identity non-discrimination does not imply unisex facilities (which is why they had to be separately legislated in NYC).

 

[Thermal]

I'm not telepathic. If you only ever refer to the inadvisability of using female only toilets as a refuge from predator attacks and never to the other ways in which females use them (e.g. to escape less serious kinds of unwanted male attention), and consistently argue in favour of a policy change which would inevitably result in their abolition, then I think it's reasonable to assume you are unaware of the differences between how males and females use their sex segregated spaces. Most men are, in my experience.

Emily's Cat brought that usage up earlier, and it's a good point that slips under the wire in some of these debates. A restroom often serves an undeniable social function, in addition to the purely waste management use.

Do you think that cis men would actually follow you in, though? As i often say ITT, I live in such a US State where it is perfectly legal for all men to do so, yet it doesn't seem to happen. Like, never even once as far as I can tell. The basic social contract of 'boys here, girls there' seems to be continually observed without a hiccup.

 

[mumblethrax]

I'm not telepathic. If you only ever refer to the inadvisability of using female only toilets as a refuge from predator attacks and never to the other ways in which females use them (e.g. to escape less serious kinds of unwanted male attention), and consistently argue in favour of a policy change which would inevitably result in their abolition, then I think it's reasonable to assume you are unaware of the differences between how males and females use their sex segregated spaces. Most men are, in my experience.

I'm well aware that you're not telepathic, which is why I've asked you (several times) to stop attributing arguments and assumptions to me that I have not made.

I have not argued in favor of a policy change that "would inevitably result in their abolition".

I have pointed out that this policy change has already occurred where I live, over twenty years ago, and not only has not "led to their abolition", is has barely changed how people use segregated public restrooms.

Bald assertions from the notoriously casual with the truth trans rights movement aren't convincing

The first thing to note here is that the way "trans ally" and similar terms are being used by some in this thread is recognizably cult-like. It serves not to identify someone who seeks to implement policies that seek to minimize harms and maximize participation in public life for trans people, but to identify an external enemy. A whole roster of beliefs can be attributed to the "trans ally", and the "trans ally" is not to be trusted. You might as well say "suppressive person".

The second...this is not a bald assertion. It's completely elementary. A crime rate is a measure of the amount of crime over a period of time. The statistics offered were a count--the number of prisoners in a given class, and the number within that class that have been sentenced for at least one sex offense.

This is a snapshot of that population at a given point in time. That's not a rate. You can't use it to find a rate, because we don't know when these offenses occurred. You can't get from here to there, and it's bonkers to try.

The third--the figure itself is completely bogus. Prisoners are only identified as "legally male transgender" after a case conference, case conferences are not given to prisoners on a short sentences, sex offenses are typically given long sentences, and this heavily skews the reported population towards having committed at least one sex offense.

So who is being casual with the truth, here?

I see your mansplaning your opinion on women's safe spaces to an actual woman so I'll let her deal with you

I think people would typically offer opinions, not explain (or mansplain) them.

Here:

Yes. This has nothing at all to do with the NYC transit system, does not assert authority over the English language, and your contention that there can be no distinction between unisex and women's bathrooms in NYC is plainly false, both in terms of ordinary or statutory definitions and behaviorally--that is, in terms of how people actually use them.

 

[theprestige]

Not really. It's just your perception of who you are--your identity, beliefs, etc.

Weird thing to seize on.

It's a weird thing to seize on, as a basis for overriding sex segregation. But this where we find ourselves, as a society.

 

[mumblethrax]

It's a weird thing to seize on, as a basis for overriding sex segregation. But this where we find ourselves, as a society.

The careful reader will note that I was not talking about gender identity at all, there.

 

[Thermal]

It's a weird thing to seize on, as a basis for overriding sex segregation. But this where we find ourselves, as a society.

And where it is determined that sex segregation exists, there is nothing to seize on.

NJ prisons are a great example. They are segregated by sex, and the occasional transgender inmate is evaluated on a case by case basis to determine if it is a net benefit to allow them to override this sex segregation.

We don't have many other comparable clearly defined sex segregated spaces. Restrooms certainly are not considered one of them.

 

[lionking]

You know what I’m sick of? Seeing small US states being held up as an exemplar of, well, anything. NJ has a murder rate 5 times higher than Australia and the UK. Why should anyone take notice of a violent and ◊◊◊◊◊◊ state?

 

[mumblethrax]

You know what I’m sick of? Seeing small US states being held up as an exemplar of, well, anything. NJ has a murder rate 5 times higher than Australia and the UK. Why should anyone take notice of a violent and ◊◊◊◊◊◊ state?

If New Jersey, with its trivial population equal to one third of Australia's, is more violent (caveats about comparing crime rates across countries here), wouldn't you expect that you'd see even more assaults than elsewhere in the world after implementation of gender identity non-discrimination laws, instead of not more than before?

You seem to be rhetorically shooting yourself in the foot, here.

I do agree that New Jersey is ◊◊◊◊◊◊, though, but only because it's my civic duty as a New Yorker.

 

[lionking]

If New Jersey, with its trivial population equal to one third of Australia's, is more violent (caveats about comparing crime rates across countries here), wouldn't you expect that you'd see even more assaults than elsewhere in the world after implementation of gender identity non-discrimination laws, instead of not more than before?

You seem to be rhetorically shooting yourself in the foot, here.

I do agree that New Jersey is ◊◊◊◊◊◊, though, but only because it's my civic duty as a New Yorker.

What I don’t accept is that NJ is a peaceful, accommodating and generally dandy place worthy of comparison with anywhere else.

 

[mumblethrax]

What I don’t accept is that NJ is a peaceful, accommodating and generally dandy place worthy of comparison with anywhere else.

Ok, but then you're just saying that about the entire country (New Jersey has a relatively low homicide rate for the US). But this means you would expect, if anything, more violence as a result of implementing gender identity non-discrimination laws. So you're still shooting yourself in the foot (or whatever you do in that godless, gunless wasteland).

I don't think Thermal was holding NJ out as an exemplar in any case. He was just saying "Hey, we did that here, and these dire consequences didn't come to pass."

 

[smartcooky]

Ok, but then you're just saying that about the entire country (New Jersey has a relatively low homicide rate for the US). But this means you would expect, if anything, more violence as a result of implementing gender identity non-discrimination laws. So you're still shooting yourself in the foot (or whatever you do in that godless, gunless wasteland).

Here is what you don't get, and what you will never get as long as you keep summarily dismissing everything the ACTUAL WOMEN who are impacted by this keep telling you. The primary reason that you don't see an increase in the number of women attacked in public toilets is because they have self-selected out of those facilities... and they have done so in droves, ergo, there are few assaults because there are few women to be the victims... so the crime statistics have nothing to reflect!
I have a lot of women in my life... Family, friends, colleagues, teammates, and former workmates. Not one of them ever uses these public facilities any longer - all of them have self-selected out. The women ITT have told you this too, but you just keep appealing to your own ignorance.
I have a further anecdote to back this up. One of our customers owns the company contracted to clean the public toilets in our city centre and in several other council facilities. He tells me that since about the middle of the 2010s, the women's toilets has steadily decreased in its use. The women's uses less than a fifth of consumables (such as toilet paper, hand towels and hand sanitizer) that the men's does. They used to be about the same, if anything, the women's used more. Also, he tells me the tampon dispenser hardly ever has anything in it.
Have a think about what you believe might be the reasons for this.

I don't think Thermal was holding NJ out as an exemplar in any case.

You haven't been paying attention. He rams the "where I live" appeal down our throats regularly any chance he gets.

 

[mumblethrax]

The primary reason that you don't see an increase in the number of women attacked in public toilets is because they have self-selected out of those facilities... and they have done so in droves, ergo, there are few assaults because there are few women to be the victims... so the crime statistics have nothing to reflect!

I don't consider this plausible, as even at high rates of avoidance, you'd still have plenty of women using public bathrooms and plenty of opportunities for criminality. If this weren't the case, you'd expect sex crimes (especially assaults) in public bathrooms to plummet as women stopped using them. Do you have any good evidence for this claim?

You haven't been paying attention. He rams the "where I live" appeal down our throats regularly any chance he gets.

And? That doesn't mean he's holding NJ out as an exemplar. It just means he's reminding you of something you'd prefer not to hear.

 

[smartcooky]

The hammer is about to come down on the SNP for their refusal to follow the law since the UK Supreme Court ruling

 

[smartcooky]

I don't consider this plausible, as even at high rates of avoidance, you'd still have plenty of women using public bathrooms and plenty of opportunities for criminality.

So you are now willing to to accept that women allowing males in their safe spaces would lead to "plenty of opportunities for criminality". Good to see you are beginning to catch up with reality.

If this weren't the case, you'd expect sex crimes (especially assaults) in public bathrooms to plummet as women stopped using them.

Why would that be the case?
Were there a great number of these assaults going on before. Got any evidence of that!?

Do you have any good evidence for this claim?

There is evidence in the part you ignored and snipped out. Sure it's anecdotal, and hearsay, but it exists. I asked you why you thought that would be, and you studiously avoided answering.... as I expected.

 

[smartcooky]

And? That doesn't mean he's holding NJ out as an exemplar.

Exemplar - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

An exemplar is a person, a place, an object, or some other entity that serves as a predominant example of a given concept​

He is using NJ to serve as a predominant example of gender identity based public bathrooms...

This is the very definition of using it as an exemplar.

 

[mumblethrax]

So you are now willing to to accept that women allowing males in their safe spaces would lead to "plenty of opportunities for criminality". Good to see you are beginning to catch up with reality.

No, I'm saying there are plenty of opportunities for criminality irrespective of whether you let transwomen in. There is no magic forcefield that keeps men out of women's bathrooms. Crimes by cis men women against women in public restrooms are unfortunately not unheard of. The MO for assault is usually something like a man waiting for a lone women to enter a bathroom before he goes in, or going in when he knows it will empty, hiding in a stall, and waiting for a lone woman to enter. That's not going to be limited by the number of women using the bathroom, unless it drops near to zero.

Why would that be the case?

Because if the number of women using the ladies' room was a limiting factor on crime in the ladies' room, crimes by cis men would drop as women stopped using public bathrooms.

Were there a great number of these assaults going on before. Got any evidence of that!?

Assaults and other crimes. I wouldn't say a great number, but yes. Read the study I posted earlier. It compares the crime rates in bathrooms in municipalities that passed gender identity non-discrimination those that did not.

There is evidence in the part you ignored and snipped out. Sure it's anecdotal, and hearsay, but it exists.

Which is why I asked for good evidence.

I asked you why you thought that would be, and you studiously avoided answering.... as I expected.

Because I don't see any good reason to believe it. If there has been an 80% drop in women using public bathrooms here it would be impossible not to notice and would be widely reported on. This would effectively mean that the bulk of women would not be able to participate in public life at all. That hasn't happened, so it's extremely far-fetched.

He is using NJ to serve as a predominant example of gender identity based public bathrooms... this is the very definition of using it as an exemplar.

No, he isn't. He's using it as an example because he's familiar with New Jersey, because he lives there. There's nothing New Jersey uber alles about this.

 

[Thermal]

I do agree that New Jersey is ◊◊◊◊◊◊, though, but only because it's my civic duty as a New Yorker.

Harsh, but fair.

 

[Thermal]

What I don’t accept is that NJ is a peaceful, accommodating and generally dandy place worthy of comparison with anywhere else.

We were considering exactly that for the slogan in our new tourism campaign.

 

[Rolfe]

The hammer is about to come down on the SNP for their refusal to follow the law since the UK Supreme Court ruling

I do hope so. I'm tired of not being able to use the toilet in the theatre I attend regularly in Glasgow. When I raised this with their management after the SC ruling in April they dug their heels in and said they were waiting for government guidance. I quoted the EHRC interim guidance at them, the bit about this is how the law has been since 2010 and to act immediately, not to wait for additional guidance, but to no avail.

There was a load of flannel about wanting  all their patrons to feel comfortable with the facilities. I pointed out that this "all" didn't seem to include women who are not comfortable with facilities where men are permitted, but didn't get an answer to that. There are perfectly good single-occupancy unisex toilets as well, apparently, but nevertheless obvious men in dresses are waltzing into the Ladies like they own the place.

All I asked for was an assurance that if a situation or confrontation were to arise, that theatre staff would support a woman who complained, and not tell her that men were allowed to be there (and that she was a bigot). They refused to give such an assurance, despite the SC ruling.

Maybe I need to find out where these single-occupancy unisex toilets are before the performance of Tristan und Isolde next season (an opera that lasts for about six hours including intervals). And expose myself to the risk of hidden cameras. You can't win.