The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

[MarkCorrigan]

Carl Bildt had a special relationship with Bill Clinton, which came after the fall of he USSR, and both were keen to get Estonia fully independent. It also meant the USA helping itself to former-USSR military equipment and valuable metals and minerals, plus military materiel. It is a fact, Sweden transport this stuff at least once on the Estonia ferry, causing high risk to civilians, as the USSR had warned Sweden and Estonia to stop smuggling, which was rife. So yes, it is perfectly possible that after the 28 Sept 1994 disaster, the key Estonia crew were renditioned as by request by the CIA, in a similar procedure to those two Egyptian guys. Perfect solution all round. Saves embarrassment.

This is gibberish. Evidence for any of the many claims in this post?

 

[zooterkin]

Carl Bildt had a special relationship with Bill Clinton, which came after the fall of he USSR, and both were keen to get Estonia fully independent. It also meant the USA helping itself to former-USSR military equipment and valuable metals and minerals, plus military materiel. It is a fact, Sweden transport this stuff at least once on the Estonia ferry, causing high risk to civilians, as the USSR had warned Sweden and Estonia to stop smuggling, which was rife. So yes, it is perfectly possible that after the 28 Sept 1994 disaster, the key Estonia crew were renditioned as by request by the CIA, in a similar procedure to those two Egyptian guys. Perfect solution all round. Saves embarrassment.

I never make anything up. All of my comments are sourced, unless I state 'IMV'.

 

[Vixen]

doricc0 quoted your post in full, and the link back to the post shows it in context. The link back to the post also acts as a perfectly good citation, enabling the specific post to be easily found.

My post said nothing about having 'pride'.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

My post said nothing about having 'pride'.

Amazingly transparent fig leaf there.

You have stated that you only deal in facts and have said claimed standards. This is a lie on all counts.

 

[Mojo]

It is a fact the two Egyptian guys were renditioned at the the request of the CIA and Sweden did so. I suppose if 'Bollyn' says Paris is the capital of France, it becomes untrue,

But that's not what we've seen here. What we have is equivalent to you saying that Marseille is the capital of France, and failing to find anyone other than Bollyn to support your claim.

 

[zooterkin]

Finns can read Estonian quite well but not perfectly as Estonian sentence structure and syntax has become germanised thanks to the influx of High German over the ages. For example, the word in the title, 'Lopetamata' (unfinished) is almost identical to the Finnish word (lopettamatta = 'without ending'). I doubt it'll be that difficult.

Are you Finnish now?

 

[Reformed Offlian]

And again, to circle back to some important context: the whole point of the exercise with this "enforced disappearance" thing was to intimate that Swedish authorities had form for secretly nabbing people, making them vanish from the face of the earth, and convincing everybody that they were dead. Because allegedly, that's what they had done to Piht.

So it's not just a terminological quibble to point out that the Egyptians weren't disappeared; the substantive point is that Sweden did *not* "do a Piht", nor anything remotely like it, in their case, and thus it is not precedent for suggesting they "did a Piht" to Piht, either.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Amazingly transparent fig leaf there.

You have stated that you only deal in facts and have said claimed standards. This is a lie on all counts.

Actually it's a pretty serious admission, though not one that's likely to be met with any great surprise.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Are you Finnish now?

I believe Vixen has always stated herself to be Finnish, albeit a Finn who has lived in many different places including an extended period of time in the UK. She has stated that her family owns (or possibly owned, I have a recollection that she stated they had sold it I believe) a small island somewhere in Finland for example.

 

[Vixen]

Evidence that "the CIA ordered (Sweden) to do its will", please. Plus, there's evidence that the two men had already been flagged for asylum refusal and deportation before the CIA told Sweden what it knew about the men.

It was all to do with post-9/11 and the US targetting Egyptian 'terrorists', which was the compelling reason it gave to other independent sovereign states to 'disappear' suspected terrorists (to Guantanamo Bay, for example.). Whatever semantics you wish to play around with, it remains that the process and 'friendship' between Sweden and the USA was in place to 'disappear' the key Estonian crew as a solution to the catastrophe which may or may not have been the result of arms smuggling on the Estonia passenger ferry.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

It was all to do with post-9/11 and the US targetting Egyptian 'terrorists', which was the compelling reason it gave to other independent sovereign states to 'disappear' suspected terrorists (to Guantanamo Bay, for example.). Whatever semantics you wish to play around with, it remains that the process and 'friendship' between Sweden and the USA was in place to 'disappear' the key Estonian crew as a solution to the catastrophe which may or may not have been the result of arms smuggling on the Estonia passenger ferry.

Again, evidence for this nutter-butters pulp spy novel speculation?

Why would the USA want old Soviet equipment after the fall of the USSR and the end of the Cold War? Russia and the US were trading partners and allies (ish) by 1994. What could they have gained from this smuggling they couldn't simply have bought direct from the source? Why would they have needed it in the first place? Western equipment already far outstripped anything that Russia could produce in 1994, let alone any pre 90's Soviet equipment.

 

[Mojo]

Finns can read Estonian quite well but not perfectly as Estonian sentence structure and syntax has become germanised thanks to the influx of High German over the ages. For example, the word in the title, 'Lopetamata' (unfinished) is almost identical to the Finnish word (lopettamatta = 'without ending'). I doubt it'll be that difficult.

Are you Finnish now?

Apparently not:

I can't read Estonian so I have no idea what is in Meister's book

 

[Vixen]

Again, evidence for this nutter-butters pulp spy novel speculation?

Why would the USA want old Soviet equipment after the fall of the USSR and the end of the Cold War? Russia and the US were trading partners and allies (ish) by 1994. What could they have gained from this smuggling they couldn't simply have bought direct from the source? Why would they have needed it in the first place? Western equipment already far outstripped anything that Russia could produce in 1994, let alone any pre 90's Soviet equipment.

They admitted in the Riksdag they did smuggle stuff on the passenger ferry, albeit only admitting to one occasion, since a customs guy had evidence. You can do stuff like reverse engineering. Evaluate their levels of advancement, etc.

 

[Vixen]

Amazingly transparent fig leaf there.

You have stated that you only deal in facts and have said claimed standards. This is a lie on all counts.

How is telling a joke a breach of standards. That is pure hazing.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

They admitted in the Riksdag they did smuggle stuff on the passenger ferry, albeit only admitting to one occasion, since a customs guy had evidence. You can do stuff like reverse engineering. Evaluate their levels of advancement, etc.

Except that they wouldn't need to do that to reverse engineer it OR evaluate their levels of advancement. They already knew that Soviet stuff was junk.

ETA: You're ignoring the actual question again, of course. I am asking why they would resort to smuggling in 1994 when they could have just bought it direct from Russia.

Even if your speculative Cold War nonsense were accurate for the time period of the Cold War, 1994 when the Estonia sank was after the end of the Cold War.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

How is telling a joke a breach of standards. That is pure hazing.

What are you talking about? What joke? What hazing?

You have made several explicit claims of both your own standards of conduct and ethics. You have repeatedly breached those standards.

 

[Mojo]

How is telling a joke a breach of standards. That is pure hazing.

What joke? The post you complained had misquoted you quoted (in full) this one:

You can have pride in your newly independent nation and flagship cruise/ferry and still retain objectivity. Think about the conflicting interests. IF Sweden did know there was illicit cargo on the ferry, then it is clear the passengers were seen as collateral. If this came out, it could cause a massive public scandal, so decision is made to classify it and give the public a mundane cause. Sweden's rationale might reason it as thus, with Estonia being newly independent and Sweden as allies of USA keen to not give Russia an excuse to reinvade, that was the best solution all round. Estonia, suspecting of a cover up of the circumstances, is angry at the implied assumption it was all their fault. Whilst the maintenance and poor registration of passengers on board were all lacking, ultimately, if the sinking was sabotage (given the circumstances) the Estonians on the other hand have a motive to pass blame onto Sweden. It is not as simple as Meister wanting to protect the reputation of his country, because Sweden also needed to, if there was dodgy cargo on board giving rise to risk of passenger danger.

Are you admitting that this whole thing is a joke?

 

[Reformed Offlian]

My post said nothing about having 'pride'.

It does in my web browser, and Mojo's, too, apparently.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

It does in my web browser, and Mojo's, too, apparently.

Maybe this is the pride being disavowed?

For someone who prides themselves in dealing only in facts and not conjecture, and with pride in their honesty, integrity and high debating standards, this is quite a post.

 

[Dabop]

Risk of what? Bad luck? Is it like breaking a mirror? We know the Russian equipment that had been smuggled did not include any explosive ordnance.

Explain what you meant about collateral if it wasn't about a fantasy Russian attack on the ferry.

Hang on- wasn't the Russian stuff supposed to be horrible radioactive goop that ate the bow locks away??? I'm fairly sure that was a thing at one point in this gish gallop of conspiracy inanity....
(I meant to write insanity, but inanity works too lol)