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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Vixen said:
Sorry, are you being personal?
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Pointing out that you frequently produce evidence in response to a request to support a previous assertion that in fact refutes that assertion is not, in my view, being personal. However, if you think it breaches the MA, you can, of course, report the post.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
Oh absolutely. Racists can and do sometimes say correct things or are knowledgeable in other areas (ETA: Bobby Fischer for example was another rabid antisemite and Holocaust denier). My point was that he was a far right anti semitic loony and is therefore an unreliable source.

Although I do think there is another reason for Vixen to be defending him. He's one of the sources she used and thinks she can rehabilitate him if she proves that I'm wrong about him being a virulent antisemite.

It's akin to how she attempted to rehabilitate Bjorkman by pretending that we were dismissing him because of personal animus, when in fact it was because he was provably incompetent at physics and engineering, the things that she was trying to use him as an expert in.
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Oh dear. Bobby Fisher's mother herself was a Polish Jew. Stop conflating anti-Zionism or anti-Americanism with anti-Semiticism, a popular tool to shut down debate which might actually be valid and worthwhile as far as peace in the Middle East goes. Fisher had a grievance against the US because of how he perceived it victimised him for playing in Yugoslavia. I would have thought that someone who claims to be in International Relations would be aware of the geopolitical nuances. As for Bjorkman, his name drives people crazy because he is ex-naval academy and spotted flaws in the JAIC's assumptions, for example, that a ship could float on it superstructure.
 
EHocking said:
@Vixen Well you did a great job of distracting everyone with OT ramblings.
How about actually providing first-hand evidence for each of these assertions of yours, e.g., the JAIC reports, not the crank/CT sites you have been quoting so far.

So. To repeat myself - cite(s)?

So, no captains evacuating the ship just one nazi SS officer who (probably) didn't want to face the Russian retaliation for (probable) war crimes he committed . The four captains aboard the William Gustoff survived the sinking. Not a single suicide.

What then of your assertion that a man with a bullet wound was observed in the wreck?

No. That was the JAIC inspection and not the Swedish navy

Meister is not an impartial source. He quit the JAIC enquiry team in a fit of nationalism because the report indicated negligence by the Estonian owners, operators and command of the MS Estonia. Main trigger was his accusation that Sweden witheld dive/survey observations that exonerated Estonian incompetence.
Bias, bitter and source of much CT nonsense

Cite - there was never a secret dive on the wreck by the Swedish government nor military.

And has none of this nonsense in it.
Please cite a link to the "Swedish navy secret dive" on the Estonia, oh, and while your at it the supposed Swedish navy report of same.

Not a single reference in that link on that CT site that mentions anything about a case strapped or chained to a persons wrist.
Here's a link to Pierre Thiger's testimony/interview. Had to get it from WebArchive, 'cos the link to the transcript in the CT site you are getting your nonsense no longer exists.

statement pierre thiger

You asked for the source about the guy in a brown/red jacket and I gave you it (Andi Meister).
I asked for evidence, not hearsay. Where is the actual first-hand source for your (and Andi Meister's) assertion?
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You have been told it is in Andi Meister's book.
 
Vixen said:
As I recall engineer Sillaste said communication from the engine room to the bridge was via monitors but whilst walking around deck they communicated by old style walkie-talkies.
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Do you have a citation for that? One that reports Sillaste saying this?
 
Axxman300 said:
Since this topic surfaced (pun intended) my Youtube feed now has several maritime experts that have given me well over 100 hours of quality profiles of most all of the high-profile shipwrecks, and disasters of history. I have learned a lot. This hasn't been a complete waste of time for me, at least in that department. But we're right back where we started with one person not happy with the latest report on Estonia, and has waded neck-deep back into a swirling sea of conspiracy.

As with all Conspiracy theorists, this person claims they are not a theorist, and only present the hard facts even though most of the sources are questionable at best, and cherry-picked most of the time. This alternate universe is based on world-view. Contradictory evidence is immediately ignored or waved away. Bad information is doubled down upon relentlessly.

Maybe this thread should be locked until the final report is delivered to the public. I enjoy crazy as much as the next person but there comes a point where nothing is gained. Just my .02.
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I am neither happy nor unhappy. I am simply following the news.
 
Mojo said:
Well, it was a secret mission, wasn't it? So obviously the divers and their supervisor will have gone to great lengths to make it sound as if they weren't looking for the briefcase. And that is exactly how it sounds! The tape is proof of a plot to cover up the secret mission!!!
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Penny drops!
 
Vixen said:
This can be easily searched, as there were extensive discussions on it.
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There were many discussions because you were the one that introduced the term, which is, out of context, gibberish. Please supply an independent citation of the term and the context.
 
Vixen said:
This can be easily searched, as there were extensive discussions on it.
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This appears to be the first mention. Where did you get the idea, and what do you mean by the phrase?
Vixen said:
The four captains of Wilhelm Gustloff did this when they realised they had been hit. They steered towards Stolpe Bank. The captain of Herald of Free Enterprise steered it to a shallow bank, thus saving the ship from sinking completely. This is standard safety tactics. Turn back to port or make for the nearest shallow bank. A big puzzle re Estonia is that the Captain seemed absent or out of control of the ship as it carried on full speed towards deep waters before the engines seized and then it was steered, or turned naturally towards port, by which time it was too late.


The theory of the ramp door being ripped open is dependent on the assumption it was locked by its internal eight locks and thus 'must have come open' by the action of the bow visor rising up 1.4m - although the JAIC does not explain how it did this - and pulling down the structure nesting the ramp framework. However, there is good evidence the car ramp was rarely fully locked as the lugs did not align so the crew just tied it with a hawser to the fo'c'sle deck capstan. This is as related by various witnesses.

If the bow visor forepeak, being held down by gravity, is ipso facto lower down than the bottom of the car ramp how the heck does it manage to deform the car ramp stiffeners? Especially when Professor Westermann said there was no sign of contact deformation - and she examined the forepeak of the bow visor.

The bow visor was found 1,000m away from the wreck so whether it moved with the wreck or not is neither here nor there.

The JAIC relies on the ship floating on its superstructure, even though the windows are supposedly smashed. It just doesn't happen like that.
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dorricc0 said:
I have worked with Rockwater (they became part of what is now Subsea7) and other commercial diving companies on saturation diving jobs, mainly in the North Sea but their company processes are standard and global. My involvement has been on the client side, defining the overall work scope and outcomes.

For reasons of safety and efficiency, every saturation diving job is thoroughly planned and executed via a series of procedures / task plans which often run to 100+ pages of detailed instructions, drawings, and risk assessments. Especially so when entry to confined spaces is required. A typical diving support vessel has a crew numbering over one hundred (the Rockwater SEMI I involved in the Estonia survey had a capacity of 110 persons) as well as the same again in onshore support staff.

The point being, the idea that the work is being performed at the whim of the diver or dive supervisor, and that there was some sort of cover-up in which all these people were complicit, is frankly bonkers.

Just my 2p-worth.
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Exactly. The guy wouldn't be going into cabin 6230 unless it was on the agenda in the first place. Plus being made to keep reading the tag until they were sure of the name was part of a preplanned task to find and identify that attaché case. Why? Because Captain Avo Piht was a key personnel. .
 
Vixen said:
Exactly. The guy wouldn't be going into cabin 6230 unless it was on the agenda in the first place. Plus being made to keep reading the tag until they were sure of the name was part of a preplanned task to find and identify that attaché case. Why? Because Captain Avo Piht was a key personnel. .
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Pure speculation.
 
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