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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Vixen said:
He states it is a fact Bollyn is 'anti-Semitic' because he believes 'Jews caused 9/11'. That is appealing to people's basest emotions. Believing Mossad, say, is behind 9/11, or that because a group of Jewish students were seen celebrating indicates anti-Semitism is utter knee-jerk nonsense. For all you know, Bollyn's views may be founded on well-reasoned and researched information rather than racism. I don't know, but given Bollyn appears to be a Middle East expert and lectures on it, maybe he is actually being impartial and objective in an academic way without bringing 'hate' into it. To add: it's a bonkers view but that doesn't mean it is based on anti-Semitism, per se. Seems to be more anti-Zionism, which is a known controversial issue.
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Why are so keen to defend someone you think is Russian disinformation agent using a false name and false identity?
 
Vixen said:
Today, Thursday, we begin interviewing the survivors of the ship's crew. In particular, it is thought that the ship's other master, Avo Pihti , who was going to Sweden as a passenger, is expected to throw light on it. Arvo Anderson, who commanded the ship, drowned with his ship. 29.9.1994 2:00
https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003370243.html
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It looks as if only the first sentence of that is quoting the police. Does the wider context of the article from which you quoted make it clearer? (The link is paywalled.)
 
Mojo said:
Please link to a post in which MarkCorrigan claims that Bollyn's views "are the same as some yobbo wrapped in an England flag who hasn't studied anything except racing form and the football league tables since he left school at fifteen."
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In English grammar, it is what is known as a simile:

a figure of speech involving the comparison of one thing with another thing of a different kind, used to make a description more emphatic or vivid (e.g. as brave as a lion ).
 
Vixen said:
Sure, we can disgard Bollyn's views but it is facetious to claim he is motivated by anti-Semiticism (necessarily).
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His motivation is irrelevant, as is @MarkCorrigan's estimation of it and your estimation of him.

Bollyn appears to the be the only source for your claim regarding the proclivity of the Swedish government to "disappear" people. But from his misattribution of the 9/11 attacks we can consider him an unreliable reporter on such matters. In a number of years, you have failed to produce another source for your version of the story of the deported Egyptians. And to put all that in the larger context, that version of the story is the only evidence you give to support your belief that the Swedes would do it again in connection with the MS Estonia rescue and investigation. At best that's an unsatisfying categorical argument of the kind you seem to like a lot when actual facts fail you.

May we finally once and for all dismiss the hypothesis that the Swedes "disappeared" key survivors? You've had years to make the case and you can't.
 
Vixen said:
@ReformedOfflian Here is a copy of the enhanced audio tape of the divers finding Voronin's attaché case. Go straight to about 06:00.


Estonia - cabin 6230 (enhanced audio)​


See, too, the top comment below it:

As a native English speaker I can tell from the tone of voice of the dive supervisor that they have found exactly what they want, the case. The diver wants to go on but the supervisor knows they have what they need but cannot say that. Around 8:40 he says" that looks like a good search", the code is he means we have what we need let's wrap it up, not risk more time in here, but cannot say that. He does not mean you are doing a good job searching . The diver does not know they have what they need because he wants to carry on and search the loo (toilet). This is all so British not saying what you mean but meaning something else. It totally throws foreign people. He checks 6229 to see how the handle responds in a locked situation compared to open that is all, hence it spins because someone died locked in there. When the supervisor states "I will see if that rings a bell up here" that is an English term of saying I will ask if that is what we are looking for, i.e. does it cause a elicit a response ". There is no physical bell ringing. The dive supervisor is talking him to the location. Less workload not navigating as well as diving. Neither of them would have a need to know the status of the owner. We have not seen the full footage we do not know the status of the case.They sound like Ex Forces from their tone and discussion.

@crankingsounds5856​

1 year ago
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This video has had the audio 'enhanced' by dubbing over the diver's squeaky voice (because he is breathing a tri-mix of gases including helium). It is therefore not a primary source. Why do we never get a primary source to support your claims?

Furthermore, as a native(ish!) English speaker, and someone who has had the privilege of standing on the shoulder of a dive supervisor during similar saturation diving operations (including Rockwater jobs actually), the comment you have quoted is, well, it's just garbage. There's nothing here but fantasy and conjecture.
 
Vixen said:
In English grammar, it is what is known as a simile:

a figure of speech involving the comparison of one thing with another thing of a different kind, used to make a description more emphatic or vivid (e.g. as brave as a lion ).
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If you're making your description more emphatic for effect, what does that say about your claims that including such language makes the argument a fallacy?

Vixen said:
I am not defending Bollyn, I am defending debating standards.
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Cool. Debating standards including something called a "straw man," which is an emphatically weakened version of the opponent's actual argument. You have a problem in this debate with remembering what your critics have actually argued, at which point you make up one of those straw men.
 
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Vixen said:
In English grammar, it is what is known as a simile:

a figure of speech involving the comparison of one thing with another thing of a different kind, used to make a description more emphatic or vivid (e.g. as brave as a lion ).
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Indeed, you are accusing MarkCorrigan of using a particular simile. Please link to a post in which he has done so.
 
I must admit I'm relatively recent to this discussion and I haven't read through all of the preceding 2108 posts in this thread nor the preceding 6 iterations / ~500+ pages. So it's a little awkward when Vixen says, 'this has already been covered'. I guess what would be really helpful at this stage would be an executive summary covering a few bullet points of what is being claimed. You know, along the lines of:
- a briefcase was found, and therefore this implies...
- the radio transmissions were poor/late, and therefore this implies...
- some people survived and others didn't, therefore...
- the bow ramp door and visor were recovered, and damage found to be consistent with...

So how about it, @Vixen ? Could you do that for the benefit of us all here trying to follow your train of thought? It's great that you are passionate about the subject and it would be much better use of your time to put together a wee summary (rather than respond to details like Bollyn's political views or Trump's BMI).

Thanks in advance.
 
Vixen said:
I am not defending Bollyn, I am defending debating standards.
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Your standards are the worst of anyone here. You continually refuse to provide evidence or citations for what you claim, when you do provide a citation or reference it's usually after being browbeaten into it, your citations regularly do not actually say what you claim they do, you have thrown false accusations around (such as claiming that others were making callous jokes at the expense of the survivors and victims of the disaster), you repeatedly get basic facts wrong (you *repeatedly* got the year and name of the 1998 Rome Statute wrong despite being corrected multiple times, you claimed that Vladimir Putin was head of the KGB in 1994 (these are basic things you can at least Google for)), etc.

And your tactic of asking others to search this thread or to search Google when they ask you for the evidence of your claims is standard operating procedure for the kind of lazy sloppy methodology typical of conspiracy theorists (and yes, you are a conspiracy theorist because you openly advocate for conspiracy theories like the theory that the JAIC report was a whitewash intended to cover-up the Russians sinking the Estonia (the ship) in order to prevent them from invading Estonia (the country)).

You claimed that you studied physics for 5 years, only to reveal when repeatedly asked to explain that, that you had studied physics at secondary school level.

Currently you're being asked what Jack Nelson's book says on page 221 about Voronin being "grossly overweight", "clinically obese", suffering from an "excruciating back injury" and you refuse to pony up.

Etc. etc.

I'm not seeing anything resembling proper debate standards from you.
 
dorricc0 said:
I must admit I'm relatively recent to this discussion and I haven't read through all of the preceding 2108 posts in this thread nor the preceding 6 iterations / ~500+ pages. So it's a little awkward when Vixen says, 'this has already been covered'.
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It's all already been covered, but Vixen keeps bringing it up as if it hasn't. It's called a fringe reset: when your arguments have been thoroughly debunked, just restate them and hope nobody remembers.
 
Mojo said:
Thought by who?
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As well as Bengt Stenmark - who was sacked shortly after - and the Helsingin Sanomat, the EVENING STANDARD in England also ran a report by Colin Adamson, "JAIL WARNING FOR THE GUILTY AS KEY WITNESS IS FOUND ALIVE', 29.9.1994. The text states that the second captain has survived and that investigators were waiting until 'Piht was in a fit mental state to give an account of what exactly happened'. #3318 Thread no. IV
 
dorricc0 said:
This video has had the audio 'enhanced' by dubbing over the diver's squeaky voice (because he is breathing a tri-mix of gases including helium). It is therefore not a primary source. Why do we never get a primary source to support your claims?

Furthermore, as a native(ish!) English speaker, and someone who has had the privilege of standing on the shoulder of a dive supervisor during similar saturation diving operations (including Rockwater jobs actually), the comment you have quoted is, well, it's just garbage. There's nothing here but fantasy and conjecture.
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Actually,, the guy who runs that Estonia channel, is very pro-JAIC and conservative in his views. He supports the JAIC view and at the same time has dealt with all kinds of MV Estonia issues on his channel in a scholarly and interesting manner. You can't accuse him of having ill-intent in enhancing the audio so that people can hear it better.
 
Vixen said:
As well as Bengt Stenmark - who was sacked shortly after - and the Helsingin Sanomat, the EVENING STANDARD in England also ran a report by Colin Adamson, "JAIL WARNING FOR THE GUILTY AS KEY WITNESS IS FOUND ALIVE', 29.9.1994. The text states that the second captain has survived and that investigators were waiting until 'Piht was in a fit mental state to give an account of what exactly happened'. #3318 Thread no. IV
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Foreign newspapers re-reporting the newspaper story does not make that original story correct.
 
Vixen said:
Actually,, the guy who runs that Estonia channel, is very pro-JAIC and conservative in his views. He supports the JAIC view and at the same time has dealt with all kinds of MV Estonia issues on his channel in a scholarly and interesting manner. You can't accuse him of having ill-intent in enhancing the audio so that people can hear it better.
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I'm not accusing anybody of anything, just pointing out that primary sources are more robust. The audio has been dubbed over, which immediately means that we'd have to check it against the original for accuracy.
 
Mojo said:
Indeed, you are accusing MarkCorrigan of using a particular simile. Please link to a post in which he has done so.
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The comparison was mine. MarkCorrigan wants us to believe Bollyn is just a racist. I don't know anything about the guy but what I read in his 9/11 book made me wonder if he was Arabic, using a 'western' pseudonym because his pro-Palestine passion, and scepticism and sense of grievance towards the US in their support of Israel was learned and well-researched, historically and politically, in an academic way. IMV we can disagree with such views but I don't agree it is the same as common or garden anti-Semiticism, and therefore worthless.
 
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Vixen said:
Actually,, the guy who runs that Estonia channel, is very pro-JAIC and conservative in his views. He supports the JAIC view and at the same time has dealt with all kinds of MV Estonia issues on his channel in a scholarly and interesting manner. You can't accuse him of having ill-intent in enhancing the audio so that people can hear it better.
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But the part you cling to is not the audio itself, it's some commenter's belief they were specifically searching for Voronin's brief case. Just confirmation bias. If they were searching for it, they would know what his name was. They obviously did not, because they made such a hash of reading the Russian script. And they would then have made a point of bringing the case up immediately as the mission was accomplished. Right?

No, this is not evidence they were searching for that brief case.
 
Vixen said:
As well as Bengt Stenmark - who was sacked shortly after - and the Helsingin Sanomat, the EVENING STANDARD in England also ran a report by Colin Adamson, "JAIL WARNING FOR THE GUILTY AS KEY WITNESS IS FOUND ALIVE', 29.9.1994. The text states that the second captain has survived and that investigators were waiting until 'Piht was in a fit mental state to give an account of what exactly happened'. #3318 Thread no. IV
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You were supposed to be citing the "information provided by the Helsinki police" that your second-hand newspaper report was relying on. But if that's beyond you, how about citing the reports from "Swedish and Danish newspapers" that the Helsingin Sanomat relied on? Perhaps they cite the police sources.
 
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