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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Vixen said:
Well, who cares if Bollyn is strongly anti-Israel state. A late friend of mine was strongly pro-Palestine and did charity work there for several years. There was no way she could be described as 'anti-Semitic' or at all racist. Your logical fallacy of using emotive language to rubbish someone's beliefs and arguments won't wash with me. It could well be Bollyn's interest in the Estonia is to do with the cargo issue. I have no idea what his thinking is. It doesn't follow he represents Estonia sceptics.
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No, he isn't anti-Israel, he's anti-semitic. He blames 9/11 on Jews for example. Stop trying to downplay what people you rely on believe Vixen. It didn't work with Rabe, it didn't work with Anders Bjorkmann and it won't work here either.

Have you forgotten the thread of this conversation again?
 
Vixen said:
@ReformedOfflian Here is a copy of the enhanced audio tape of the divers finding Voronin's attaché case. Go straight to about 06:00.


Estonia - cabin 6230 (enhanced audio)​


See, too, the top comment below it:

As a native English speaker I can tell from the tone of voice of the dive supervisor that they have found exactly what they want, the case. The diver wants to go on but the supervisor knows they have what they need but cannot say that. Around 8:40 he says" that looks like a good search", the code is he means we have what we need let's wrap it up, not risk more time in here, but cannot say that. He does not mean you are doing a good job searching . The diver does not know they have what they need because he wants to carry on and search the loo (toilet). This is all so British not saying what you mean but meaning something else. It totally throws foreign people. He checks 6229 to see how the handle responds in a locked situation compared to open that is all, hence it spins because someone died locked in there. When the supervisor states "I will see if that rings a bell up here" that is an English term of saying I will ask if that is what we are looking for, i.e. does it cause a elicit a response ". There is no physical bell ringing. The dive supervisor is talking him to the location. Less workload not navigating as well as diving. Neither of them would have a need to know the status of the owner. We have not seen the full footage we do not know the status of the case.They sound like Ex Forces from their tone and discussion.

@crankingsounds5856​

1 year ago
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As a native English speaker, I can tell that the author of that comment has a vivid imagination.
 
Vixen said:
I gave you the source look it up for yourself. You were told he died of natural causes (health problems) aged circa 42.
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I'm not paying for a book so I can look up a single page of it to do your homework.

Have you read Nelson's book? What does it say on page 221 about Voronin being grossly overweight, having severe health problems and suffering from excruciating back injury? Does it also say that he spritely jumped into a lifeboat?

Your use of language "excruciating" "grossly" "severely" "spritely" is clear evidence of you concocting an exaggerated fantasy narrative about Voronin.

Your continual failure to provide the evidence you're asked for and lazily telling others to do your homework has been noted.

I'll note again that you're willing to cite publisher, year, author, page, etc. for irrelevant books about World War II, but either incapable or unwilling to cite relevant sources, or you only do so when asked multiple times and even them you won't tell me what the source says.

What does page 221 of Jack Nelson's "harrowing life-or-death survival epic" actually say about Voronin being "grossly overweight", having "severe health problems" and suffering from an "excruciating back injury"?
 
Vixen said:
As far as an accredited journalist is concerned, the police is a reliable and credible source of information. Given privacy laws in Finland are strong - they don't even give out the names of convicted persons, unless it is deemed in the public interest - the fact HS had confirmation from the police that Piht was in Helsinki, and Stenmark, a minister in Sweden, told a press conference Piht had been interviewed in Turku, that certainly does count as primary sources. Especially when Stenmark resigned next day.
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But you haven't used the police as a source, you have used a newspaper story.
 
Vixen said:
A chap of a similar weight to his survived despite an excruciating back injury, whilst fit and healthy senior crew went 'missing' after they were listed as survivors.



AI Overview

View attachment 63547
To calculate your BMI, divide your weight in kilograms by your height in meters squared (kg/m²). Alternatively, use the formula: weight in pounds / (height in inches)² x 703. For example, a person weighing 70 kg (about 154 lbs) with a height of 1.70 m (about 5'7") would have a BMI of 24.2, calculated as 70 / (1.70 x 1.70).


So compare and contrast the middle-aged Voronin with the elderly Trump, to get a picture of Voronin's physical disadvantage in an emergency requiring some agility and speed.
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Lots of fit and healthy people don't survive shipwrecks.

Once you are in the water it's down to luck.

If you are in a boat then you have a much better chance of surviving.

It's not like it's a mystery. Ships sink all the time and crew in boats survive at a much higher rate than crew in the water, especially in cold water in a storm.
 
Vixen said:
Your logical fallacy of using emotive language to rubbish someone's beliefs and arguments won't wash with me.
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There's no fallacy here, "emotive" language or not. People are pointing out that your source for a particular claim is unreliable because he has a history of distorting facts. Imagining that the CIA might be involved could be considered a logical fallacy, but it's not necessary to decide which one. It's a patently absurd claim on its face.

Vixen said:
As far as an accredited journalist is concerned, the police is a reliable and credible source of information.
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Are you a police officer or an accredited journalist? You have a habit of simply announcing what must be true based on your imagination for how other professions operate. They used to call this begging the question, but it seems begging the question has devolved into a synonym for circular reasoning.

Vixen said:
See, too, the top comment below it:
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Oh, good, the opinion of an anonymous YouTube commenter. I was worried that you wouldn't have a reliable source. Funny how you were just talking about appealing to popular opinion being a bad argument.

Vixen said:
EHocking brought up the issue of the guy in red.
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No. You brought it up here...
Vixen

Post in thread 'The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII'

JesseCuster said:
How is the captain's dead body going to tell you anything about the things you think are mysterious - i.e. the listing, speed and changeover? How do you propose extracting information about the speed of the Estonia or how it was listing from the captain's dead body?
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As I said, the bridge stores a record of important information. Also the position of each of the three-or-four person crew on the bridge is another clue. A diver said there was an unidentified man in a red jacket lying beneath a toppled cabinet.
...in the context of explaining why recovering the captain's body for post mortem would tell us the readings from the bridge instruments. @EHocking simply took the always-necessary task of pressing you repeatedly for your evidence.

Vixen said:
Well, let's see. It only turned about 12° and this supposedly was enough to cause the gaping hole.
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That's not the claim. The hull rotated enough for the hole to become visible.

Vixen said:
And a 'strong wave' knocked off the bow visor at exactly Swedish midnight, in international waters, and when all the communication systems were down. Not like the Russians to interfere in this way. Von Leyen's plane having its gps blocked recently had nothing to do with the Russians, I am sure. Only a CT-er would believe that!
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All of that, including then "strong wave" straw man, has been covered previously in depth. Speaking as someone who once took a psychology class and can now call myself a psychology postgraduate, you should see someone about your memory problems.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
No, he isn't anti-Israel, he's anti-semitic. He blames 9/11 on Jews for example. Stop trying to downplay what people you rely on believe Vixen. It didn't work with Rabe, it didn't work with Anders Bjorkmann and it won't work here either.

Have you forgotten the thread of this conversation again?
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Oh, come, come, Bollyn claims to be an expert on the Middle East and based on what I read of his 9/11 book, he does appear to have a deep understanding of the issues surrounding that region. Thus it is childlike and dishonourable of you to claim Bollyn's views - which may or may not be predicated on good faith and genuine passion for a cause - are the same as some yobbo wrapped in an England flag who hasn't studied anything except racing form and the football league tables since he left school at fifteen. As Bollyn's views on the situation in the Middle East are not relevant here, suffice to say it could well be the case his criticism extends to the situation in ex-USSR Estonia and its dependence on the USA as of that era.
 
Vixen said:
Oh, come, come, Bollyn claims to be an expert on the Middle East and based on what I read of his 9/11 book, he does appear to have a deep understanding of the issues surrounding that region. Thus it is childlike and dishonourable of you to claim Bollyn's views - which may or may not be predicated on good faith and genuine passion for a cause - are the same as some yobbo wrapped in an England flag who hasn't studied anything except racing form and the football league tables since he left school at fifteen. As Bollyn's views on the situation in the Middle East are not relevant here, suffice to say it could well be the case his criticism extends to the situation in ex-USSR Estonia and its dependence on the USA as of that era.
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This post is ◊◊◊◊-stew even by your low standards.
 
Vixen said:
Thus it is childlike and dishonourable of you to claim Bollyn's views - which may or may not be predicated on good faith and genuine passion for a cause - are the same as some yobbo wrapped in an England flag who hasn't studied anything except racing form and the football league tables since he left school at fifteen.
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Please link to a post where MarkCorrigan has done this.
 
Andy_Ross said:
But you haven't used the police as a source, you have used a newspaper story.
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The articles clearly say Helsinki Police was the source.

www.hs.fi

Kapteeni Pihtin kohtalosta monia versioita

Estonian toisen päällikön, merikapteeni Avo Pihtin kohtalosta on liikkeellä useita versioita. Viimeksi perjantaina Ruotsin ja Tanskan lehdet kertoivat, että Piht oli kadonnut helsinkiläisestä sairaalasta. Lehdet viittasivat Helsingin poliisin antamiin tietoihin. Virallisista henkiinjääneiden...
www.hs.fi www.hs.fi

1.10.1994 2:00

Estonian toisen päällikön, merikapteeni Avo Pihtin kohtalosta on liikkeellä useita versioita. Viimeksi perjantaina Ruotsin ja Tanskan lehdet kertoivat, että Piht oli kadonnut helsinkiläisestä sairaalasta. Lehdet viittasivat Helsingin poliisin antamiin tietoihin.
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Last Friday, Swedish and Danish newspapers reported that Piht had disappeared from a hospital in Helsinki. The newspapers referred to information provided by the Helsinki police.
 
Vixen said:
The articles clearly say Helsinki Police was the source.


Last Friday, Swedish and Danish newspapers reported that Piht had disappeared from a hospital in Helsinki. The newspapers referred to information provided by the Helsinki police.
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What information did they refer to? Please be specific.
 
Mojo said:
Please link to a post where MarkCorrigan has done this.
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He states it is a fact Bollyn is 'anti-Semitic' because he believes 'Jews caused 9/11'. That is appealing to people's basest emotions. Believing Mossad, say, is behind 9/11, or that because a group of Jewish students were seen celebrating indicates anti-Semitism is utter knee-jerk nonsense. For all you know, Bollyn's views may be founded on well-reasoned and researched information rather than racism. I don't know, but given Bollyn appears to be a Middle East expert and lectures on it, maybe he is actually being impartial and objective in an academic way without bringing 'hate' into it. To add: it's a bonkers view but that doesn't mean it is based on anti-Semitism, per se. Seems to be more anti-Zionism, which is a known controversial issue.
 
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Vixen said:
He states it is a fact Bollyn is 'anti-Semitic' because he believes 'Jews caused 9/11'. That is appealing to people's basest emotions. Believing Mossad, say, is behind 9/11, or that because a group of Jewish students were seen celebrating indicates anti-Semitism is utter knee-jerk nonsense. For all you know, Bollyn's views may be founded on well-reasoned and researched information rather than racism. I don't know, but given Bollyn appears to be a Middle East expert and lectures on it, maybe he is actually being impartial and objective in an academic way without bringing 'hate' into it.
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Please link to a post in which MarkCorrigan claims that Bollyn's views "are the same as some yobbo wrapped in an England flag who hasn't studied anything except racing form and the football league tables since he left school at fifteen."
 
Mojo said:
What information did they refer to? Please be specific.
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Tänään torstaina ryhdytään haastattelemaan laivan miehistön henkiinjääneitä. Erityisesti arvellaan valaisua saatavan laivan toiselta päälliköltä Avo Pihtilta , joka oli menossa Ruotsiin matkustajana. Laivaa komentanut Arvo Anderson hukkui laivansa mukana.
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Today, Thursday, we begin interviewing the survivors of the ship's crew. In particular, it is thought that the ship's other master, Avo Pihti , who was going to Sweden as a passenger, is expected to throw light on it. Arvo Anderson, who commanded the ship, drowned with his ship. 29.9.1994 2:00
https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003370243.html
 
Mojo said:
Please link to a post in which MarkCorrigan claims that Bollyn's views "are the same as some yobbo wrapped in an England flag who hasn't studied anything except racing form and the football league tables since he left school at fifteen."
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It encapsulates MC's description of Bollyn as a racist we can safely disregard. Sure, we can disgard Bollyn's views but it is facetious to claim he is motivated by anti-Semiticism (necessarily).
 
Vixen said:
Today, Thursday, we begin interviewing the survivors of the ship's crew. In particular, it is thought that the ship's other master, Avo Pihti , who was going to Sweden as a passenger, is expected to throw light on it. Arvo Anderson, who commanded the ship, drowned with his ship. 29.9.1994 2:00
https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003370243.html
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Thought by who?
 
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