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Does 'rape culture' accurately describe (many) societies?

Poem said:
None of which should stop us from trying.

I am concerned about children - please stop suggesting I am not.
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Only disingenuously. The first page of this thread shows you are not; indeed the title of your thread tells us that. You are concerned about porn, regardless of who may have access to it. You keep sending people down your rabbit hole by trying to use your pseudo-concern about children accessing porn, just like you tried to use your initial post about the prevalence of illegal pornography. You have only gone down the "think of the children" route as you think it provides a wedge for your actual aim which is to remove porn from the internet (and everywhere else on earth). It's a been an effective reverse motte-and-bailey for you.

Just be honest and make it clear you want all porn to be removed from the world, regardless of whether children can access it.
 
Poem said:
I believe that porn is having a pernicious influence on society as a whole. Much evidence has been cited that backs that up.
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Much evidence has been cited that porn exists in society as a whole. But porn has always existed in some form in society as a whole. If porn has a "pernicious" effect on society as a whole, don't you think we would have seen it by now? Do you have any idea how randy the ancient Romans were? The Victorian British? Pretty much as soon as the movie camera was invented, people were making films of people ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. And before that they were taking daguerreotype photographs, making drawings, painting, woodblock printing - have you seen Edo-period Japanese shunga? 😲 I'm guessing probably not, if you think porn is a new thing. If porn is everywhere, porn has always been everywhere.

Porn exists. Porn has always existed. It isn't society's downfall.
 
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Darat said:
Only disingenuously. The first page of this thread shows you are not; indeed the title of your thread tells us that. You are concerned about porn, regardless of who may have access to it.
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To be completely fair, this does not mean that Poem is unconcerned about children. After all, some of "everybody" is children.
 
arthwollipot said:
Much evidence has been cited that porn exists in society as a whole. But porn has always existed in some form in society as a whole. If porn has a "pernicious" effect on society as a whole, don't you think we would have seen it by now? Do you have any idea how randy the ancient Romans were? The Victorian British? Pretty much as soon as the movie camera was invented, people were making films of people ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. And before that they were taking daguerreotype photographs, making drawings, painting, woodblock printing - have you seen Edo-period Japanese shunga? 😲 I'm guessing probably not, if you think porn is a new thing. If porn is everywhere, porn has always been everywhere.

Porn exists. Porn has always existed. It isn't society's downfall.
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Time for the link to the NSFW findings from Pompeii: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erotic_art_in_Pompeii_and_Herculaneum

Poem - do you think such an article and photos in it should be allowed to remain when we ban all porn as you wish to?
 
Darat said:
Poem - do you think such an article and photos in it should be allowed to remain when we ban all porn as you wish to?
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Don't ask! Poem has decreed we should ban all porn NOW NOW NOW because of the children, and let lawyers and panels of experts figure out all the tricky legalese and gray areas and let us know what we actually banned later! How could that possibly go wrong?
 
Poem said:
Keeping children safe is a first step. Essential, to do that properly, we need to make porn unavailable to them. (...) I don't think we can do it without banning porn.
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Lithrael said:
We did NOT successfully ban slavery by just saying "Ban Slavery." Even GOOD ideas need more steps. Advocates need to be interested in thinking about the steps that will help accomplish their goals. Without creating unforseen problems!
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Here I've quoted your reply and then my post that you were replying to. Because my post still works as a reply to your reply, because your reply ignored my post.

If your reply to this post and every other post is just going to be "Think of the children. UNCRC. We must ban porn" then why are you bothering to quote any of us?

Please, Poem. "ban porn" is a GOAL not a PLAN.
 
Poem said:
Not true:

The UNCRC is a legally binding agreement
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Not really. It's actually a non-binding agreement to implement its principles as laws that bind only the particular signatory, and only to itself. Russia is not bound to the UN, just because it signed the CRC. And if Russia declines to obey the CRC, who will enforce it on them? Nobody.
 
Poem said:
The bare minimum is that we fulfil our legal obligation (self-imposed obligation) to make sure children are safe on the net.
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If a legal obligation is all we have to keep our children safe, then our children are not safe on the net or anywhere.

legality doesn't even enter the picture until a law has been broken.

Making something illegal has never stopped willful crimes.
 
theprestige said:
Not really. It's actually a non-binding agreement to implement its principles as laws that bind only the particular signatory, and only to itself. Russia is not bound to the UN, just because it signed the CRC. And if Russia declines to obey the CRC, who will enforce it on them? Nobody.
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All one has to do is Google UNCRC with various qualifiers like "penalties" or " enforcement" to see that it is toothless.
 
Darat said:
Time for the link to the NSFW findings from Pompeii: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erotic_art_in_Pompeii_and_Herculaneum

Poem - do you think such an article and photos in it should be allowed to remain when we ban all porn as you wish to?
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Fascinating. That's ...ancient! And that's ...so extreme that I'm sure @Poem will insist that kind of depiction is a modern perversion that indicates that the collapse of civilization is imminent. (To be fair, I myself wouldn't have imagined that kind of ...ah, extreme, and divergent, stuff was made that long ago.)

So, thought I'd look up the history of porn, look up just how long back us homo sapiens started actually making porn. Porn, erotic art, depiction of the sexual act for matters religious, call it what you will --- in short, erotica, porn.

These two give a nice quick overview:


medium.com

The History of Pornography: From The Paleolithic to Pornhub

From Beginning to End, the History of Erotic Entertainment
medium.com medium.com

(Don't click the first link from work! It's a sober discussion on the subject matter, nothing remotely prurient there, but if there's someone like OP at work, then the ancient porn statue/etching depicted right at top of the article might cause them major offense, or, who knows, major something else.)

(Apparently the oldest porn that we have is a statue from 7K+ years ago, found in Germany, which depicts ...you guessed it, him and her going at it. And people have been recording porn in all manner of things, like papyruses, and statues, and etchings, and just about whatever medium people could get their hands on.)

...We're a degenerate species, are us homo sapiens! I share with OP his disgust for this rampaging ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. No wonder God sent down the flood to wipe us out.



eta: Haha, the misshapen-asterisk-making-mills of the nanny grind slowly, but they grind exceedingly fine!
 
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arthwollipot said:
Make sure kids know that porn performers are paid actors playing out a role and they won't base their own behaviour on what they see, any more than they base their behaviour on what they see in a Fast and Furious movie.

There was a show when my kids were growing up called "Movie Magic". It was a short five-minute between-shows filler on Nickelodeon or something that showed exactly how movie scenes were created. It showed them, from an early age, that movies are not real, special effects are not real, and that movie monsters can't hurt them. This meant that by the time they were old enough to be horny and go looking on their own for porn, which they did, they already understood that movies weren't reality. It's as simple as that. Well... as simple as that and having open and honest conversations with them and answering their questions without deception or equivocation. You know, like a parent should do with their kids.
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It is true that those special effects aren't real - nobody dies, gets hurt or raped...in such movies. In a porn film, however, the sex is real.

Now present evidence that contradicts the UK's Children's Commissioner's assertion that children are watching it and acting it out. Why do you think child sexual abuse in the UK is mostly perpetrated by kids?

You are wrong....very wrong.
 
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Poem said:
It is true that those special effects aren't real - nobody dies, gets hurt or raped...in such movies. In a porn film, however, the sex is real.
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No, it isn't. That's the point. Porn is fantasy. It's not real.

Looks like nobody sat down with you and had a sensible and honest conversation about sex and porn like they should have. You're an illustration of why education is so damn important.
 
arthwollipot said:
No, it isn't. That's the point. Porn is fantasy. It's not real.

Looks like nobody sat down with you and had a sensible and honest conversation about sex and porn like they should have. You're an illustration of why education is so damn important.
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I didn't say porn is real. I said the sex is real.

Are folk having real sex in porn films - yes or no?
 
Poem said:
I didn't say porn is real. I said the sex is real.

Are folk having real sex in porn films - yes or no?
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Depends of course how you define "real" and "sex". When an actor cries in a scene is that real crying? When an actor in a scene screams at another actor in an abusive manner and threatens to kill them is that real abuse and a real threat? When one actor kisses another actor in a romantic manner in a scene is that real sex?
 
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Darat said:
Depends of course how you define "real" and "sex". When an actor cries in a scene is that real crying? When an actor in a scene screams at another actor in an abusive manner and threatens to kill them is that real abuse and a real threat? When one actor kisses another actor in a romantic manner in a scene is that real sex?
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I don't see how any of this makes a difference. In general, actors are acting - their crying, screaming and threats aren't real. However, as the prestige posted earlier in the thread....(I am paraphrasing to a degree): in porn, genitals are entering orifices - ejaculate is being ejaculated.
 
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