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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Vixen said:
You can do a search about this as it has been discussed in the past. However, another readily available source is the book - well worth reading if you have an interest in this topic - The Hole by Drew Wilson. He states that the guy under the toppled cabinet had a tattoo on his hand which would not have been Capt Andresson's. Wilson's source is the late former head of the JAIC, Andi Meister, quoting Lopetamatta logiraamat ['The Unfinished Logbook', Baltic News Services, 1997]. According to Jutta Rabe from p. 140, the two eyewitness sources were two Finnish armed forces guys who said that clearly visible in these videos was Capt. Andresson with a 'shot through the head'.
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So you have no source for your assertion, only undocumented heresay that is not documented in any official report.
Certainly none of this is in the JAIC reports or the RockWellWater reports.
Vixen said:
Now, my view is that (a) Finns tend to tell it as it is (authenticity) so I do believe them if that is what they say they saw. (b) this doesn't necessarily signify murder. IMV it could well be suicide in the face of near certain death, as being the captain, he couldn't leave the ship, as Andresson was very old school and trained at a Russian naval academy.
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What a load of horse ◊◊◊◊ speculation. You have absolutely no idea how anyone thought or would have acted in these circumstances.
The idea that the captain goes down with the ship is Hollywood fiction.
Vixen said:
In WWII, torpedoed German ships would have a flurry of SS officers shooting dead their wives and children before killing themself, rather than face drowning and fear.
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C word required, and you should be very aware of the four-letter word I'm talking about.

Cite. 'Cos that's absolute bull ◊◊◊◊.
Vixen said:
Note: words in italics indicates the title of a book.
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No ◊◊◊◊ Sherlock
 
Vixen said:
No the issue was, according to the JAIC report, the waves on the starboard side [iirc] were so high as the ship listed owing to the imbalance now on the car deck caused by the massive sudden ingress of water, the windows (which are strongly reinforced to withstand gale force winds) somehow smashed causing the vessel to float on infrastucture. This is what was in dispute. LondonJohn claimed that HOFE was a good example of a ship floating on its side despite my demonstrating very clearly HOFE fortuitously came to rest on a sandbank, which stopped it turning upside down and sinking completely.
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Vixen said:
Well, I have sent off for Meister's book [from a secondhand web shop in Tartu, Estonia] so let's see what it says when it arrives.
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This should be interesting, e.g.,
Vixen said:
I can't read Estonian so I [will] have no idea what is in Meister's book
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(my italics)
Vixen said:
but Jutta Rabe made a claim that some helicopter pilot got chatting with a survivor who said he came from a small town in Estonia and that this survivor was Piht, who did come from there.
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So... Meister is quoting a journalists claim from an anonymous helicopter pilot talking to an unidentified survivor of the sinking.
Vixen said:
Now you might say this is bolleaux
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Dunno what Silver Birches have to do with this. Looks like you speak French as well as you spead/read Estonian.
Vixen said:
but Meister was a member of the JAIC and thus his view can't be brushed off as a conspiracy theory., given he has had sight of highly confidential stuff and more.
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By my count, your so called "source" supporting your assertion is at least a fourth-hand account.
Not quite the cite that anyone (i.e. non-CT) could begin to believe.
 
EHocking said:
So you have no source for your assertion, only undocumented heresay that is not documented in any official report.
Certainly none of this is in the JAIC reports or the RockWellWater reports.

What a load of horse ◊◊◊◊ speculation. You have absolutely no idea how anyone thought or would have acted in these circumstances.
The idea that the captain goes down with the ship is Hollywood fiction.

C word required, and you should be very aware of the four-letter word I'm talking about.

Cite. 'Cos that's absolute bull ◊◊◊◊.

No ◊◊◊◊ Sherlock
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Sea of Death ~ the Baltic 1945, Claes Göran Wetterholm, The History Pres, 2021. See p. 115 re the Wilhelm Gustloff and Captain Heinz Schön*. An excellent book worth reading.

*Re screaming for a gun to shoot his wife and kids.
 
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dorricc0 said:
Now I'm confused. How does 'one of the fathers of the modern day racing rules' and judge at the Olympics & America’s Cup sailing competitions have expertise in identifying seabed tracks?
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From AI overview:

The RMS Lusitania

  • Ownership:In 1982, Bemis acquired the wreck of the RMS Lusitania for a nominal fee, taking full ownership of the sunken British liner.
  • Protected Status:The Lusitania is considered a protected wreck by the Irish government, and diving on it requires permission from both the authorities and Bemis as the owner.
  • Controversy:Bemis's ownership and the wreck's protected status have contributed to the controversy surrounding the Lusitania, which was torpedoed and sunk by a German U-boat in 1915 during World War I.
Bemis was an expert diver as well as sailor and all things marine-related.
 
EHocking said:
This should be interesting, e.g.,

(my italics)

So... Meister is quoting a journalists claim from an anonymous helicopter pilot talking to an unidentified survivor of the sinking.

Dunno what Silver Birches have to do with this. Looks like you speak French as well as you spead/read Estonian.

By my count, your so called "source" supporting your assertion is at least a fourth-hand account.
Not quite the cite that anyone (i.e. non-CT) could begin to believe.
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You do know you can copy text from a photo and then translate it using the 'Lens' feature (google or Apple, etc.). No, vice versa, Rabe is quoting Meister's book.
 
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Vixen said:
You can do a search about this as it has been discussed in the past. However, another readily available source is the book - well worth reading if you have an interest in this topic - The Hole by Drew Wilson. He states that the guy under the toppled cabinet had a tattoo on his hand which would not have been Capt Andresson's. Wilson's source is the late former head of the JAIC, Andi Meister, quoting Lopetamatta logiraamat ['The Unfinished Logbook', Baltic News Services, 1997]. According to Jutta Rabe from p. 140, the two eyewitness sources were two Finnish armed forces guys who said that clearly visible in these videos was Capt. Andresson with a 'shot through the head'. Now, my view is that (a) Finns tend to tell it as it is (authenticity) so I do believe them if that is what they say they saw. (b) this doesn't necessarily signify murder. IMV it could well be suicide in the face of near certain death, as being the captain, he couldn't leave the ship, as Andresson was very old school and trained at a Russian naval academy. In WWII, torpedoed German ships would have a flurry of SS officers shooting dead their wives and children before killing themself, rather than face drowning and fear.

Note: words in italics indicates the title of a book.
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How did they see the tattoo if they didn't go right in?

What was the tattoo?

Are you saying Finns don't lie?

Why couldn't he leave the ship?

What's all this bollocks about SS officers shooting their families got to do with it?
 
Vixen said:
The main ferries between Finland, Estonia and Sweden, whilst making journeys of relatively short durations (< one day) are designed as cruise ships, with entertainment, restaurants, lavish buffets, conference rooms, dancing, bars, which many use as such. As a commercial enterprise, the captain's team were expected to wear the uniform whilst on duty. What is the actual situation now?
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Why would they wear uniform in the middle of the night on the bridge in a storm?

Are you making things up again?

Were they expecting a cocktail party?
 
Vixen said:
One of the ship's engineers who was doing the rounds, was immediately behind Capt Andresson as he was making his way up the steps to the bridge to take over, as is protocol every X number of hours. The ship lurched at that very moment the clocks changed from East European Time to Swedish time. from 01:00 to 12:00 and so the remarkably fast sinking began. The persons who would or should have been on the bridge have all been identified as to where they ended up during the disaster, yet no-one has been able to identify the man with the hand tattoo under the cabinet.
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Why do you think there would have been only a set number of people on the bridge in an emergency when the ship was sinking?

No special sea duty men called on watch?

No team leaders there for orders or bringing in formation?

You know nothing of how ships work or are organised.
 
Vixen said:
No the issue was, according to the JAIC report, the waves on the starboard side [iirc] were so high as the ship listed owing to the imbalance now on the car deck caused by the massive sudden ingress of water, the windows (which are strongly reinforced to withstand gale force winds) somehow smashed causing the vessel to float on infrastucture. This is what was in dispute. LondonJohn claimed that HOFE was a good example of a ship floating on its side despite my demonstrating very clearly HOFE fortuitously came to rest on a sandbank, which stopped it turning upside down and sinking completely.
Click to expand...

Why do you think the windows wouldn't break?

They are stressed against wave and wind action, do you think that is the same as the force applied when a ship capsizes?

What does 'float on it's infrastructure' mean? The superstructure of a ship is not water tight against flooding. Even a warship will flood id the superstructure is submerged, there are lots of openings for air conditioning, engine intake and exhaust and the various generators and cooling systems.

You know nothing of ship construction or operation.
 
Vixen said:
You can mock F. Gregg Bemis but he is considered 'the father of modern day sailing racing rules'.

Gregg Bemis, Harvard Class of ’30, is one of the fathers of the modern day racing rules. In 1950, Bemis sat down with Harold Vanderbilt and Gerald Sambrooke-Sturgess and fine-tuned the rules Vanderbilt had been working on since the 1930s. Those rules went into effect in 1961, and for the first time ever the rules became identical wherever sailboats are raced. Bemis was Chairman of the NAYRU appeals committee for many years, after which he became Chairman of the NAYRU racing rules committee. He was also a senior international judge who served at the Olympics and the America’s Cup. He was a judge long before US Sailing created a judging program.

The Sailing Museum

Bemis travelled with Rabe to the Estonia wreck so it is first hand observation. I love how people mistaking sceptism for knee-jerk mocking, write off experts like Bemis or Braidwood as 'conspiracy theorist' cranks. Spot the true ignoramus.
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What do sailing race rules have to do with anything? Why would someone that invented a set of racing rules know anything about it?

What experience would he have with seabed tracks?
 
Andy_Ross said:
How did they see the tattoo if they didn't go right in?

What was the tattoo?

Are you saying Finns don't lie?

Why couldn't he leave the ship?

What's all this bollocks about SS officers shooting their families got to do with it?
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That is what is claimed. Re the two Finnish armed forces guys, it's not that they 'don't lie', they don't bother putting a PR spin on things. It's cultural. Re the rally driver on British tv when asked where he had been replied, 'I was having a ◊◊◊◊'.
 
Vixen said:
From AI overview:

The RMS Lusitania

  • Ownership:In 1982, Bemis acquired the wreck of the RMS Lusitania for a nominal fee, taking full ownership of the sunken British liner.
  • Protected Status:The Lusitania is considered a protected wreck by the Irish government, and diving on it requires permission from both the authorities and Bemis as the owner.
  • Controversy:Bemis's ownership and the wreck's protected status have contributed to the controversy surrounding the Lusitania, which was torpedoed and sunk by a German U-boat in 1915 during World War I.
Bemis was an expert diver as well as sailor and all things marine-related.
Click to expand...
How does that give him experience with tracks made by submarines?

Do U-Boats have wheels (apart from one experimental and crazy mini sub)
 
Andy_Ross said:
Why do you think there would have been only a set number of people on the bridge in an emergency when the ship was sinking?

No special sea duty men called on watch?

No team leaders there for orders or bringing in formation?

You know nothing of how ships work or are organised.
Click to expand...
This is exactly it, it is in the public interest to know what was the issue with the captain and why he wasn't in control of the ship, re speed and how quickly the emergency was dealt with. It is in the public interest because it was a civilian passenger ship with entire families aboard, including little children and elderly grandparents. In a public investigation people are entitled to have an answer as to what the heck was going on with the captain, who was known as being an old school Soviet-trained authoritarian type. It is not acceptable to say, you don't need to know.
 
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